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Weirdo revulsion

No star here laces

11:09 / 17.06.02

Last night, channel 4 screened a one hour show called "Inside my head" which was the first in a series of programmes about teenage mental illness. This first episode featured a 16 year old boy named Michael who had suspected schizophrenia.

Leaving aside Michael's schizophrenic episodes, I'd like to talk about the impressions I had of him when he was behaving normally.

In many ways Michael was quite an engaging character - when he was talking to camera he was often surprisingly mature occasionally funny and generally quite lively and positive. But around other people he quite plainly didn't fit in - his clothes always looked funny, and his behaviour always slightly out of place.

As I was watching the show I experienced a really odd jumble of reactions - I'd keep having flashes of empathy with or sympathy for Michael followed immediately by quite an icky feeling of revulsion. At some level I really didn't want to have any feeling for this person. Of course this tallied very well with Michael's obvious isolation and loneliness in the programme (despite his talking about 'friends' he was never shown interacting with any peers).

Now clearly it's impossible to demonstrate causality around this kind of thing, but it did throw up a couple of things I started to wonder about.

Are we pre-programmed to reject people who display this kind of behaviour? Secondly, how easy is it to overcome, or do we always feel it despite ourselves? How does this relate to the experience of mental health professionals? Does it relate at all to the (apparently) equally universal phenomenon of xenophobia?

Secondly, aren't these kinds of things interesting when you relate 'em to the Islamic belief that the soul is full of urges towards evil but that when God gave man self-awareness he also gave him an 'angel' in his soul to combat the evil urges so that he would have an equal chance at doing good or doing evil. I love the thought that the brain might be filled with instincts that in some way correlate not only with good and evil, but also left and rightwing behaviour (assuming you don't think that's the same thing...)

gozer the destructor

17:25 / 17.06.02

Personally i find odd people very entertaining, tend to steer towards them. The whole religous thing is not symptomatic of the islamic faith, the old christian cliche of the devil and the angel perched on the shoulders, born with sin and the hope of redemption. Odd people are funny and we are all odd to someone, the genetics is just fear of the unknown, survival evolutionary development kinda stuff, y'dig?

Murray Hamhandler

23:42 / 17.06.02

Odd people don't trouble me. "Odd" succinctly defines myself and 90% of the people I know. On the other hand...people w/severe mental illness really bother me a lot. I acknowledge this as my last real prejudice and it's one that I would like to get past as quickly as possible. Mind you, I've known severely depressed people, schizophrenics, people w/various mental disabilities (I pretty much grew up w/a kid who has Down Syndrome), etc. and gotten on fantastically w/them. The people that I have real problems with (and there seem to be a lot of them around where I live, for some reason) are those who seem completely displaced from reality, who speak at you rather than with you, as if it makes no difference to them whether you're another person or a lightpost. I know that it's not their fault that they are the way they are and I want to empathize w/them, really. I just have a hard time moving away from that "please, just go away" attitude. I suspect that my attitude stems, at least in part, from the fact that I myself sometimes don't feel entirely stable, and it scares me to think that there's even the slightest chance that I could end up like that. Is it wrong to not want mentally unbalanced people in your life?

16:55 / 18.06.02

Will react to this properly when there's time, Lyra. In the meantime, I'd contrast your observations with society's reaction to other severe mental disorders such as manic-depressive psychosis (manic people are infectiously fun to be around, frequently welcomed into social gatherings and the probable origin of 'genius close to madness' truisms), depression (we rather like the 'suffering creative' stereotype) and many who harm themselves and/or others quite spectacularly (glamourisation of the 'Betty Blue' or Hannibal Lecter archetypes). Given that there's rarely a neat line dividing schizophrenia from these other states, I'd (boringly) say society's reaction stems from a variety of factors including the individual's perceived threat/unpredictability (will they attack us?), wealth/social status (are they merely 'eccentric'?) and cultural value (are they productive?)

23:37 / 18.06.02

There is a social desire to be like others. To fit in, to be the same, to be normal. I think we have an unconscious tendency towards this, perhaps left over from pack instinct to group together the similar for genetic protection, or even the cognitive process of grouping similar items together for abstraction. Similarly, some of us rebel strongly against this and seek individualism as a counter force to this one.

The opposing reaction to a desire for similarlaity naturally, is to oppose what is different than you. Strange = unknown triggering fear and thus hate. It seems from my observations that this urge you describe does exist, perhaps drawing from some of my specilations above.

DRR... DRR... DRR...

00:53 / 19.06.02

I do recall a study that seemed to show some negative correlation between the percived "attractiveness" of a person and their degree of mental health needs.

Subjects were shown photographs of strangers, some of whom had been diagnosed with various forms of mental illness, and were asked to grade how attractive they thought those people were. There seemed to be a distinct tendancy for the mentally ill to be percived as less attractive, even though the test subjects were unaware of their mental health status.

Perhaps someone ('Nesh?) can supply more details about the study?

07:36 / 19.06.02

Ganesh> About the 'attractiveness' of the mentally ill. Maybe, but aren't we more attracted to the archetypes rather than the reality. Obviously it depends on the severity of the condition, but manic behaviour can be really unnerving for observers. Likewise depressive behaviour is socially offputting.

I do agree with your last sentence tho. Nicely put.

Lyra> You use the term 'pre-programmed' - suggesting a genetic explanation. However, we are also comprehensively trained (or programmed if you will) as children to display 'good/normal' behaviors and not to display 'bad/abnormal' ones. We are punished for the latter and therefore implicitly taught to punish those who do likewise.

The training is a powerful process to regulate social behavior as productive, coherent and cohesive.

Rage is back! Attack!

21:18 / 25.06.02

I don't know about any type of "training," but I find myself intentionally seeking these "odd" people out. I used to go on "hunts," actually. Oh ya, and a few years ago I checked myself into the nuthouse for the sake of stimulating conversation. My classmates simply weren't doing it for me.

20:06 / 26.06.02

I think that a lot of the perceived unattractiveness has to do with labelling. Once someone's been diagnosed with a mental illness, they internalize that label, and become a Schizophrenic, say, instead of a Person suffering from schizophrenia (I'll argue this for physical illnesses as well). I realize that this whole argument sounds very PC, but I really believe (back me up, here, Wittgenstein) that the words one uses to define oneself are telling, and affect a whole lot more than we'd like to admit.

Back to the point, though, I'd say that people who have been labelled as having a mental illness are sometimes not attractive to others because they're not secure in themselves. Being told that you're 'mentally ill' is a brutal process, if you believe the diagnosis. It's sort of like being emotionally eviscerated. That sort of inner turmoil tends to show up externally.

Whoooooo! Sorry 'bout this. I've tried re-writing it, and I'm afraid that it's as coherent as it's going to get. As a friend of mine once said: I dunno, bartender, gimme another...

20:40 / 26.06.02

i'm probably taking this kind of personally - having suffered from mental illness in the past which still makes an appearance from time to time - but i find the notion of anyone finding 'odd'/mentally ill people entertaining quite repulsive. i understand lack of knowledge and i am always wary of people whose behaviour is unpredictable for whatever reason, although it's probably unnecessary in nearly all cases. but i felt isolated when i was very ill. having people refuse to sit next to me on the bus because i had cuts on my arm (again, understandable if you don't know that self harmers are unlikely to turn their feelings outwards) made me feel infinately worse. perhaps it makes it easier for me to empathise with a mentally ill person - or, particularly the stigma/discrimination and sometimes hostility they can face - because i've been there. i wouldn't class myself as a 'wierdo' - i suffered depression and had a breakdown after surviving a ten year abusive relationship - and having people be repulsed because of the physical signs of my illness was horrible. people are usually aware of others' reaction to them and, as i say, it can make a person's illness seem all the more unbearable. i'm glad people have been honest in this thread but i feel pretty sad too.

20:42 / 26.06.02

There's a certain truth to that - but the flipside is, of course, that not all (mental) illness labels are equally stigmatising. Some individuals (and I'm thinking here of celebrities in desperate need of 'edge' but many, many non-famous types too) actively seek out certain diagnostic labels...

(Rage: you are Pink, and I claim my free Kookyworld VIP laminate.)

I guess I was trying, in my earlier post, to address Lyra's original premise - that we might be 'pre-programmed' (in an evolutionary 'poorly-viable breeding-partner' sense?) to give the mentally ill a body-swerve. The sociological context to this argument would suggest that mental illness might be inherently bad for any given society.

I'm arguing that this isn't the case. Firstly, what is and isn't considered mental disorder in the twenty-first century very probably doesn't map onto what was considered 'pathological' (if such a framing device existed) in centuries past. In other historical/cultural contexts, hearing voices may well have been a desirable trait. As I've said, it's a truism that madness and genius share a common continuum; manic individuals are not infrequently overwhelmed with ideas and creativity, and many of history's supposed geniuses were also known to experience extreme mood swings (hence, I guess, the relative desirability of a modern diagnosis of 'manic-depression').

As with death and dying, mental illness has become largely sequestered in our western culture, and I agree that whole tranches of 'normal behaviour' (bereavement, adolescence, dissatisfaction) are in danger of becoming irreversibly medicalised - particularly in the US, where the 'American Dream' perfectibility of mankind often outweighs the more existentialist (yep, suffering is relevant) European approach. Deciding what does and doesn't constitute 'mental illness' is frequently a precarious task.

20:46 / 26.06.02

The 'agreeing' bit of my last post was directed at Abigail, incidentally, but applies equally to much of what SFD's written.

As far as finding mentally disordered individuals "entertaining", I guess it depends on context. Happily-manic people often present as infectiously light-hearted, and some of the funniest, blackest jokes I've ever heard have come from chronic depressives. I think it depends on the extent to which the individual concerned is suffering - and also where the laughing-with/laughing-at boundary lies...

20:54 / 26.06.02

SFD: Thanks for your post. As someone who, though not in the same boat, has been in another boat in the same general vicinity as yours, I've been taking this thread a wee bit personally, myself.

This may be a bit off-topic, but I always viewed my diagnosis as crap, and my supposed illness as a natural reaction to unnatural circumstances (years of emotional abuse). I think that, sometimes, 'mental illness' is a process of coping with really big and unpleasant things, and that coming out the other end as a whole human being is possible.

Sorry. Carry on...

21:11 / 26.06.02

... which kind of relates to my point also, Abigail. When does "years of emotional abuse" become illness? When does situational unhappiness become 'clinical' depression? When does weight-watching translate into 'eating disorder'? When does a liking for something become 'addiction'?

To some extent, it's academic to argue over whether or not something "big and unpleasant" constitutes illness: possibly more pertinent is who one approaches with the problem. Given that demands upon medical/psychiatric services have increased phenomenally within the last few decades - with many genuinely believing life's unhappinesses can invariably be 'treated' pharmacologically or psychotherapeutically by paid strangers - it's perhaps unsurprising that society is tending towards overmedicalisation.

When is an illness not an illness? When it's just life...

21:48 / 26.06.02

When is an illness not an illness? When it's just life...

Exactly, Ganesh. I couldn't agree more.

...possibly more pertinent is who one approaches with the problem.

Well, kind of. The fact is that, other than MDs or Psychologists/Psychiatrists, there aren't a whole lot of resources for people who don't want to be medicated or subjected to analysis. I had a really hard time finding someone who shared my opinion that I wasn't ill, rather that I was dealing with something and didn't quite know how to go about it.

Years before all this happened in my own life, I was supporting a boyfriend who had been diagnosed as being clinically depressed. He didn't accept the diagnosis, and didn't agree with the proposed treatments (ie. Drugs and therapy) [Note: He was of the Franny and Zooey therapy-is-all-about-adjusting-you-to-the-mediocrity-of-this-world type. Not that there's anything wrong with that, I'm just saying...]

Anyhow, because there were no systems out there to treat and support him and not his illness, he refused to get treatment period and everything got a whole lot worse.

So I think that people go to whoever's there, not necessarily because they want to, but because they have to do something, and they may not be aware of alternatives to the standard two options. Not to mention the fact that those tend to be the only two treatments covered by Health Insurance...

Sorry, again. I'm having a really hard time keeping this coherent, but hope that I'm making some sense.

00:14 / 27.06.02

This is a subject as close to my heart as it is to yours, Abigail, but I fear we're getting further and further away from Lyra's original premise. I think I may start a new thread on this one...

The Natural Way

12:17 / 27.06.02

SFD: "i'm probably taking this kind of personally - having suffered from mental illness in the past which still makes an appearance from time to time - but i find the notion of anyone finding 'odd'/mentally ill people entertaining quite repulsive."

My bro was telling me about a friend of his who "suffers" from manic episodes and recently, now that he's on medication and in remission, finds himself really missing the insane, god-like vibe he got when he was having one of his turns. While undergoing these episodes he was, he believes(and many people will testify to the fact), VERY entertaining indeed. I'm not saying for one minute that there's anything entertaining about someone in pain - there isn't - but the idea that mental illness must always include pain and precludes laughter is just as much the product of negative labeling (homogenizing/generalising) as anything else. The joys of complexity and all that.

As for the ugly photos: I suppose one factor could have been that many people suffering from depression and/or schizophrenia tend to let themselves go a bit.

15:05 / 27.06.02

runs - i was more wondering if those who see the mentally disturbed going off on one as some kind of spectator sport (which is the impression i've got from some of this thread) have ever considered that it might be incredibly distressing for that person to be viewed as such. trying to redress the balance, really, in that not many on this thread appear to have personal experience of mental illness. to be labelled as mentally ill can have a quite dehumanising effect both for the sufferer and those around hir. although saying that, when i was 'ill' i was quite desperate for a diagnosis of some kind. bit hazy as to why - will have to think about it. perhaps i needed it to be officially acknowledged that i'd been thorugh a bad time.

ganesh - i was never 'ill' when i was suffering the abuse. i couldn't afford to be. i survived. i thought i'd never, ever get out of the relationship, so it was a matter of day to day survival. what happens when someone is gaoled for life for a crime they haven't committed? they adapt, to enough of an extent so that they can survive. it was only later - a combination of cutting the financial links i had with my ex partner (after a year of daily grovelling to get him to co-operate), the death of a friend, and for the first time in my life being treated with some decency and affection - that i was able to let go and think about/express the horrors i'd been through. hence flashbacks, nightmares, self harm, the inability to leave the house/my room, suicide attempt(s).

illness or simply expression?

The Natural Way

15:50 / 27.06.02

SFD: That desperation for a diagnosis you mentioned, could it have something to do w/ the desire to trap, identify, understand and in some way conquer the "illness"? I'm beginning, quite accidentally, to throw up arguments FOR labelling now ("knowing the 'name' of something bestows power" and and all that)..... Whoops! Sorry.

16:38 / 27.06.02

quite possibly, runs. there are certainly arguements for and against diagnosis. my main whinge against the mental health system in this country (england) has always been the emphasis on drugs when talking would've done me and others i know so much more good. but a lot of that's down to lack of money.

17:01 / 27.06.02

I have a friend who's currently undiagnosed (the numerous doctors who've seen him believe it to be a form of schizophrenia they haven't encountered before), and I have to put my response down to fear of the unknown... and it's as much a fear of the unknown within myself as it is within my friend. He's a lovely bloke, but his unpredictability makes me realise that my internal resources aren't nearly well adapted enough to respond to him, if that makes sense. I simply don't have a frame of reference from which to draw a response, although I'm working on it.

Bandler and Grinder use a cybernetics term, the Law of Requisite Variety, to describe how a person with the most options for response in any given situation will naturally dominate those with fewer options. The idea that there's someone nearby who might choose to act in a manner that you cannot possibly predict, coupled with the fear that you might not have the resources to be able to respond to them, makes you steer clear. They even mapped this model onto the doctor/patient relationship, generalising that a lot of patients don't get better because their therapists have restricted their own behaviour into what is professionally acceptable within the context of therapy, thus allowing their patients to have a greater degree of flexibility. I'd be interested to hear your response to those kind of observations, 'Nesh.

There's someone very close to me who is currently going through a major depression (someone who it is very difficult to support, due to the nature of our relationship). It can be just as hard to be in that kind of situation, as you feel constantly drained, as though the person is literally sucking the life out of you (not through their own intention - it's no-one's fault). I can usually cheer them up in the short term (I can do wonders with a few cuddly toys, character voices, and a bit of imagination), but there's such a feeling of long-term powerlessness, that I'm sure they're feeling far worse than I am. Anyone who works in the field has my utmost respect for their bravery.

Rage is back! Attack!

06:23 / 01.07.02

(At least I'm not a Bobbie, Ganesh. And you blame an agent for trying to understand? Besides, what's your diagnosis, hey? I may be Pink- but I've got Orange pooka dots that no one gonna be medicatin.)

No star here laces

10:53 / 01.07.02

exp: I think you just nailed what I was originally trying to get at in the first post, but tackled rather ham-fistedly.

It's that weird sort of fear mixed with compassion and complete lack of understanding of what to do that makes the mentally ill so distressing. And, of course, this reaction will probably contribute to their own misery.

03:05 / 03.07.02

I think the whole 'helplessness to help' aspect does add considerably to the 'revulsion' of your thread title, Lyra. People unacquainted with psychiatry nbot infrequently ask how I manage to resist pissing myself with laughter at some of the bizarre, ridiculous notions confided to me by the truly psychotic. Of course, no matter how silly the individual delusion appears (eg. testicles are miniature nuclear reactors), the fact that it's expressed seriously, desperately and without insight - often to the point that it's acted upon (testicles might explode, so attempt to saw them off with a bread-knife - it happened) - means one is more likely to be shocked/scared/appalled than to actually laugh.

These days, it's not psychiatric illness that worries me - I know enough about what can and can't be done to have a management flowchart for most situations - but personality disorder and social crisis. These are the elements that, for the most part, I'm helpless to change - but, for whatever reason, the individual/Government/media/society in general expects me to address.

03:12 / 03.07.02

And Rage, you're quite justified in asking my own "diagnosis". I've never seen a psychiatrist (or psychologist or counsellor) myself and never taken psychotropic medication - although there've been two or three points in my life when I think I perhaps should have done. I suspect I've fulfilled criteria for at least mild-to-moderate depression and one time, psyching myself up to approach my GP and demand medication, I researched which antidepressant I'd ask for (decided on Paroxetine - but this was three or four years back, now).

If I were to become ill, I'd probably develop agitated depression. Or mild hypomania. Or alcoholism. Or...