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China Mieville

 
  

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A Qalyn Signifier ==>
(prev. Sign of Qalyn)
19:58 / 15.07.04
I didn't call it Goth, for chrissakes.
 
 
A Qalyn Signifier ==>
(prev. Sign of Qalyn)
21:06 / 16.07.04
Although, now that I think of it, I don’t suppose there is anything too gothique about the Pied Pipers’ seductive evil or the soul-sucking bats who just want their mommies or the gloomy Gus with the magic sword and the sexy mystique.
 
 
Tamara Willett Hurt
16:10 / 17.07.04
Hmmm... I get that you're talking about the slake-moths and Uther Doul, but who is the Pied Piper?
 
 
A Qalyn Signifier ==>
(prev. Sign of Qalyn)
22:16 / 17.07.04
The seductively evil antagonist of King Rat.
 
 
Stoatie. Stoatie? STOATIE.
(prev. Stoatie's power level is >9000)
03:41 / 18.07.04
And King Rat does, at times, seem an awful lot like The Crow...
 
 
nedrichards is confused
14:05 / 18.07.04
Slake Moths == less cool Dementors.
 
 
A Qalyn Signifier ==>
(prev. Sign of Qalyn)
02:47 / 19.07.04
Whose side are you on, Stoat?!?
 
 
No star here laces
08:26 / 19.07.04
The point everybody seems to miss is that Qalyn has been reading goth zines on the internet.

And the result of this is him disliking a book that everyone else loved.

I haven't read it, so can't comment.

But I think the key message to the kids is:

DO NOT READ GOTH ZINES ON THE INTERNET
 
 
Stoatie. Stoatie? STOATIE.
(prev. Stoatie's power level is >9000)
19:36 / 19.07.04
I love Mieville... but I can definitely see why he'd appeal to goths. Apart from anything else, he's pierced to fuck and likes to show it. Oh, and he reminds everyone of Mervyn Peake. Who goths LOVE.

Although the hype wasn't just confined to net-goths... M John Harrison, among others, was singing his praises to the skies as soon as King Rat came out... there was quite a buzz for PSS and the Scar, too... definitely being marketed as "dark yet hip"... hmm... do I hear the G word again?
 
 
A Qalyn Signifier ==>
(prev. Sign of Qalyn)
20:15 / 19.07.04
Shut up, 'Laces, Goth is boss! Anyway, if I were incapable of appreciating cultural products beyond their Gothness, Mieville would be just fine with me. The problem with Mieville is not that he's too Goth, but that he sucks, and not blood, either.
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
16:21 / 20.07.04
I though Perdido and the Scar were quite gothic (as oppossed to goth), I am utterly and completely convinced that Meiville is a role player and that the world of Perdido and Scar is his campaign world.
 
 
A Qalyn Signifier ==>
(prev. Sign of Qalyn)
20:36 / 20.07.04
Fie! Fie on China Mieville and his skagbats. Or whatever they're called.

I think I've made my point.
 
 
at the scarwash
22:16 / 20.07.04
"Skagbats."

That has to be the most amazing word ever.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
02:02 / 04.08.04
No! Cumcrumble is the best word ever.

Lve Mieville, except for King Rat, which is faux-Gaiman to the XTREME. With an overbearing love of drum n' bass which cunts the whole story.

Isn't The Iron Council (third book in his 'New Crobuzon' series) out this month? W00t!
 
 
nedrichards is confused
14:37 / 04.08.04
Jack, sure faux-Gaiman TO THE MAX. And I wish I had something more to add to the general slagging off, he's alright for a gothic (not goth) equivalent of a beach read I suppose.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
13:04 / 05.08.04
Nah, you misread me. King Rat is warmed over Gaiman (both King Rat and, funnily enough, Gaiman's own American Gods stripmine Gaiman's Sandman series for spare parts).

However, while Gaiman's clearly just treading water (Coraline proved he can write wonderful short children's stories, but there's clearly more money for him in the kind of epic King/Barkeresque area of dark fantasy/horror publishing), Mieville had somewhere to go after what was, after all, his first attempt at a novel. Perdido Street Station and The Scar are some of the finest fantasy fiction I've ever read (reading that back it sounds like damning the man with faint praise - for the record, I'm referring to the kind of stuff that Clive Barker, M John Harrison, Harlan Ellison, Phillip Pullman et al write - intelligent, intense prose that happens to have the characters and narrative located in a fantastical setting). I can understand people balking a little at his style, but honestly that's just a matter of taste - Barker is equally verbose, possibly even more so.

China Mieville utterly rocks.
 
 
nedrichards is confused
17:16 / 05.08.04
Yes I did misunderstand you but I'm glad you got the chance to clarify, it er, clarified some things for me I've been thinknig about him. I'm not quite sure how I don't like him so much given my complete and undying love for everything and anything David Foster Wallace writes yet for some reason or another I just don't feel *taken* by the work. I'm sure it's more my character defect than his fault was a writer.
 
 
A Qalyn Signifier ==>
(prev. Sign of Qalyn)
17:51 / 05.08.04
Holy Hannah, Jack, that is so wrongheaded. His ludicrous and, in fact, kind of demeaning-to-the-reader stylings could be tolerated if he was writing about anything interesting. In fact, the "tropes" or whatever are retreads, the characters are, as a very wise critic said somewhere, like Mieville talking in a funny voice, and the tone is arrogant. His books have one or two setpieces that are quite good, such as the trick with the disappearing cactusman in the Scar, but hardly worth the price of admission--that price being the repeated brutalization of the word "cosseting". However, we have seen everything he does done better. Jack Vance, Roger Zelazny, Gene Wolfe, yes, even poor Clive Barker, have all been there already with a lot more class.
 
 
Tamara Willett Hurt
11:02 / 06.08.04
like Mieville talking in a funny voice

This was a lazy, meaningless criticism the first time, and shit ain't changed. It's just another, more mocking way to say "I don't like the characterisation". So what specifically is wrong with Mieville's characterisation? Personally I think it's very well done - Isaac's slightly smug, over-bearing single-mindedness and gluttony; Bellis' arrogance and illusion of self-suffiency; Doul's charisma; Fennec's slimey manipulation which you'd like to think you wouldn't fall for, but...

I'm not familiar with the other authors you name, Pants, so I can't really comment. Clive Barker makes me laugh, though. But not a lot.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
12:39 / 06.08.04
Wrongheaded? No, I'm pretty sure I've got my 'informed opinion' head on, Q-Pants. But thanks for your concern.

So we're not talking about facts here. There's no Michael-Moore-style massaging of the figures to be done when you're delivering an opinion about the quality of somebody's writing. And if you want to bandy words liked 'arrogant' and 'demeaning' (I assume you mean 'patronising'), then making a qualitative judgement about a novel based on your own taste, and then ridiculing others who disagree with said qualitative judgement... well, you live in a glass house, mate. That's all.

I'm not a particularly big fan of Zelazny or Wolfe, to be honest. They just aren't my cup of tea. See? That's an opinion, delivered without condemnation. Exciting, isn't it? Let's try another one! I've been a big fan of Clive Barker ever since the Books Of Blood, which I think are some of the most searingly intelligent, politically aware, imaginative, and just goddamned PERVY horror stories ever written. 'The Body Politic' was a set text when I was at university, and 'In The Hills, The Cities' is awe-inspiring, stunning and weird in the extreme - I consider it to be possibly one of the only horror/fantasy concepts which can genuinely be said to be wholly original. Whew! Are you getting all this, or should I use smaller words?
 
 
Tamara Willett Hurt
13:31 / 06.08.04
One more thing -

"Look at me, I've got a thesaurus and all these really BIG ideas about, like, culture and biology and artificial intelligence! I'm big! I'm clever! Quantum mechanics! World building!"

In both PSS and The Scar, the scenes where characters sit down and outline their heretical theories of physics don't occur until a good way into the book. Mieville doesn't try to dazzle the reader with how clever he is, instead he starts slow - in the case of PSS, I'd say very slow, he really takes his time to outline the kind of lifestyle Isaac and Lin have. You could call this "world building" but that's just a newfangled s-f/fantasy way of saying "setting the scene". I think it's very well done - a lot of it is just people commuting or going to the pub or wandering round bits of the city, and it feels very real to me. New Crobuzon is a fucked-up crazy place, but so is London.

And in The Scar, the action might start a lot earlier, but the very beginning is even more low-key: it's just a woman on a boat on a river heading towards the sea past some pretty mundane bits of landscape. If you find yourself thinking, as I did, "who is this woman?", "where is she going?", and "why?", then Mieville has done one of the jobs a novelist has to do well, regardless of genre, and certainly without recourse to any attention-grabbing tricks.
 
 
A Qalyn Signifier ==>
(prev. Sign of Qalyn)
17:04 / 06.08.04
I'm getting it just fine, Jack! I was hoping if I acted up enough someone would come along and say something reasonable--it works about 1/3 of the time here. Obviously your cup of tea can be no problem for me. I have a real problem being impressed with someone who is trying so hard to impress me (or himself), but I do know that that is my problem.

My objection to Mieville is that he is lauded being for lots of things he is not: elegant, original, interesting. Sure, his novels are structurally adequate. He is able to construct characters that don't seem impossible, whose reactions to situations that we can understand. Just great! Now what?

Oddly, this is also my problem with Grant Morrison, too, but he doesn't make me nearly as angry. I don't know why.
 
 
A Qalyn Signifier ==>
(prev. Sign of Qalyn)
17:08 / 06.08.04
Or, "Yes, yes, cup of tea, but he still sucks and can't understand why you like him."
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
00:38 / 07.09.04
[draws curtain around Q and his meandering logic]

So, anyway - The Iron Council is out in the UK next week, I think. I buy! I buy swiftly! Anyone else wanna talk about it?
 
 
Our Lady Drinks Your Milkshake
14:37 / 10.09.04
[ bounces up and down excitedly ] Ooh, ooh ooh! We can have a new thread to talk about that! Just imagine! The new vistas of choice open to us! It'll be like a new golden age!
 
 
Stoatie. Stoatie? STOATIE.
(prev. Stoatie's power level is >9000)
10:44 / 11.09.04
So is it out Monday? I have a train journey to make on Monday. That would be so utterly perfect.
 
 
Stoatie. Stoatie? STOATIE.
(prev. Stoatie's power level is >9000)
16:07 / 11.09.04
Hah! Fuck that. Just went to my old place of work and picked up a US import (DelRey got him first this time). And while I was there was given a proof copy of the new Iain M Banks (also due Monday) by my old boss.

The Mieville looks ace (as does the Banks, incidentally)... currently ploughing through the last 100 pages of "Out" so I can start it.
 
 
Stoatie. Stoatie? STOATIE.
(prev. Stoatie's power level is >9000)
13:14 / 15.09.04
Just finished "Iron Council"... and it was ace. The first forty or so pages left me feeling a bit "ho-hum, he's gone all Mieville-by-numbers", and not really giving two shits about either the plot or the characters.
Then it kicks in properly, and it's ace.


SPOILER ALERT












A great deal of it is (despite initial appearances) set in New Crobuzon itself, which is not only in the middle of a war, but undergoing violent revolutionary upheaval. Cut with this is the story of the Council itself, a train long since taken over by the workers and now a symbol of insurrection.
 
 
No star here laces
11:45 / 20.09.04
SPOILERS







Yeah, obviously it was damn entertaining. But I definitely felt it was a let-down after the first two. I didn't bond with any of the characters the way I bonded with Isaac et al in Perdido Street Station.

I felt like Mieville was a bit prissy with Cutter's sexuality to tell truth. It was such a major part of the character, but he totally skirted around it.

I guess I also expected that, as the end of a trilogy, there would be some kind of resolution or change in New Crobuzon itself, so it was very disappointing to have the Iron Council become yet another arcane and baroque relic within the city, like the ribs or something.

Also, I think he played the "mysterious" thing a bit too heavily around Tesh. Like in "The Scar" you at least get to know a bit about the Grindylow and how they operate, but there was so little about Tesh in this book that I found it kind of frustrating.

I dunno, I had a big sense of seeing why he wrote it the way he did, but not liking it. It felt a bit unpolished compared to the other two, especially Perdido Street Station.

Tell truth, I'd recommend someone coming new to him to only read PSS. I think it has so much more impact than the other two, and it stands alone perfectly.
 
 
No star here laces
11:50 / 20.09.04
yeah, and finally, the first time round we had "crisis energy", the second time round we had "possibility mining" - where was the great meta-scientific idea this time? Golems totally suck in comparison...
 
 
Our Lady Drinks Your Milkshake
22:59 / 22.09.04
He's signing at < sigh > Forbidden Planet, Shaftesbury Avenue, 2nd October 1 to 2 pm.
 
 
unheimlich manoeuvre
02:05 / 12.10.04
an article by China Miéville, that you might enjoy.

The monsters that stalk Albion
Independent 10 October 2004
 
 
Stoatie. Stoatie? STOATIE.
(prev. Stoatie's power level is >9000)
12:06 / 12.10.04
Damn, you beat me to it...
 
 
Tamara Willett Hurt
14:54 / 19.10.04
There's also an interview with Mieville in this morning's (*spit*) Metro, in which he indicates that he doesn't hate everything about Tolkien and was just being a self-aggrandising young punk.

So, to carry on talking about Iron Council...

SPOILERS from here on in, chaver.


I like it more the more I think about. Maybe it's because I was at the ESF this weekend, but I think it might be the best novel ever about left-wing politics - specifically the internal fractions within. (Ori: "We need to wake people up!" Someone else: "They're already awake." Ori: "No they're not!") He really captures the beauty and excitement of a certain kind of political movement, nowhere more so in the conceit of the Councillors calling each other "sister". But he also ends by concluding that the good guys can never win. That final image of the train is incredibly haunting because although part of the power is the idea that it will always be there to threaten New Crobuzon, you know it never will - it will inspire people anew, but the revolution is in a state of permanent deferment: forever delayed.

Although I know it's foolish to try to extract a workable political strategy from a novel like this, I do find myself wondering whether Mieville believes that the left can never win, but it's still a fight worth fighting (like the last ever episode of Angel) - all you can do is go back to the printing press and start all over again - or whether he believes that there is a way, and it's just not found in this novel. I can't help wondering whether he believes that the only solution is to go off and found these autonomous communities and make sure they don't develop their own power structures (as in The Scar).

I really don't see how Cutter's sexuality is skirted when his relationship with Judah is what drives his entire story, and when so many characters in the book are cottagers...

Having said that, IC does have some problems. The final fifth or so is pretty bleak and drawn-out, which I think is intentional, but makes for hard going. Unfortunately there are also some passages near the end that, for the most time, are not particularly well-written: Mieville doesn't able to do action sequences that don't place either in a city or at sea, so the whole IC/militia elemental confrontation just comes across like a poor re-write of the Armada/Morning Walker battle in The Scar. Plus, some of the final betrayals are a little predictable: I was impressed on re-reading a section of PSS to see that we're basically given a huge clue to Spiral Jacobs' identity in that book, but Drogon's a baddy, you say? Gosh, I would never have suspected that!

Another problem is that Judah only comes into focus during the flashback section. Now, first time round, this works brilliantly, because he's been set up as this kind of Christ-like figure in a very sketchy way, and so it's fascinating to really get to know him and see how he became who he is. But when we cut back to the present day, we lose him again: it's deliberate in the sense that he's meant to be that detached, and unknowable (especially to Cutter), but it makes the reader a little bit more alienated. Especially when you add the fact that there are two many secondary characters in this book we don't care about, because they're cyphers: I'm thinking mostly of Cutter's group, who are there to provide a bodycount and that's about it - this contrasts badly with the previous two novels in which almost every character we meet has something interesting about them.

In fact maybe the biggest problem with Iron Council is that the section telling the story of how the Council came to be is by far the best section of the book. I guess that could be deliberate too - because that's the legend, that's the glorious revolution that was once achieved, and the present is never going to live up to that. Makes a problematic structure for a novel, though.

Still - some amazing images in the rest of the book, really haunting moments that linger, from Cutter waking up in the forest and saying "I'll come find you", to Ori stumbling out through a hole in reality after missing a few days, and seeing the city not as he left it... Great stuff.
 
 
Stoatie. Stoatie? STOATIE.
(prev. Stoatie's power level is >9000)
15:13 / 19.10.04
I dunno... I thought some of the action scenes were pretty cool- the scene with the bowler-hatted handlingers, for example, was so beautifully visual, like a Magritte painting or something.

In many ways it reminded me of Ken McLeod's "The Star Fraction" on the political side (although the two stories are very different)- both, as you say (about Council sum up really rather neatly the problem of what's wrong with the Left, both have their revolutions, neither leads to the hoped-for Utopia.
 
  

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