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Looming Financial Crisis?

 
  

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aim for joviality
13:11 / 23.01.08
I'm always inspired when I read about the way urban Britons coped with food supplies during rationing in and after the Second World War.

Pig and chicken clubs, with the animals kept in city squares; city allotments; trading with rural folks - for example arts, handcrafts, preserves, can be made as easily in a city flat as in the country and traded for fresh produce with your rural acquaintance; day-trips to the country to join in harvesting and preserving underutilised resources like rosehips, apples, damsons, game birds, coppicewood and so on. If we update that to include hosting, design, business development advice, skill-sharing as stuff to trade and so on, many realistic options exist for creative urban dwellers to connect to free resources without massive time investments.
 
 
West Baltimore Hausing Project
13:17 / 23.01.08
Oh, yes - preserves. I have a friend who lives in a one-bedroom flat in Hackney and makes her own preserves, although of course you'd need to get hold of the fruit somehow.

I think we might be wandering too far into "how does one restructure society to deal with a resource-limited future" rather than specifically the looming f.c., however. Recession or not, increasing sustainability in living is certainly a good. But specifically in the context of an upcoming recession?
 
 
aim for joviality
15:07 / 23.01.08
I've been enjoying the intertwined discussion of markets/recession/CDOs with alternative economies and individual-action security and stability strategies for the future. It's the more-than-one-basket thing. But of course my aesthetics are not everyone's.

Reuters has this on today's situation: FTSE down 2.1% today, but this follows a 3% rise yesterday following the U.S. Fed Reserve rate cut.

"It's not absolutely certain that we've bottomed," said Dave Evans, a market analyst at Betonmarkets. "For the next two days I don't think we'll see as much severe selling as we've seen, so perhaps we will stabilise.

"I'm leaning more towards there being a rally over the next week, and if not a rally then at least some choppy trading, not more severe selling. After that it's very murky and depends on what the Fed decides."

U.S. stocks fell on Tuesday but the decline was less than feared as the emergency rate cut by the U.S. Federal Reserve helped stabilise global markets.
 
 
The Idol Rich
15:20 / 23.01.08
Really interesting interview, thanks for that Vincennes. A few bits struck me.
He says

“But in reality, over the very very long term, currency processes tend to be fairly stable and mean-reverting. So the dollar’s very weak today, but that’s no reason to believe the dollar’s going to be weak forever or that, because it’s weak today, it’s going to get dramatically weaker tomorrow.”

Unless there is some kind of paradigm shift of the kind he mentions later of course.

Anyone read this book?

Black Swan

Seems as though it ought to be relevant here, especially when he’s talking about 10-Sigma events. I will give it a go when I get a chance I reckon.

Until that interview no-one in this thread (as I recall) had mentioned the credit rating agencies, it’s strange that there is absolutely no comeback for someone who finds out that their security which is highly rated by S&P or whoever is worthless. I reckon that the rating industry may be a due a shake-up.

Also, interesting what he says about his colleagues’ instincts on watching houses going up – I wonder about that every time I get the bus through Hackney; who is going to live in all these new flats, will they buy them at full price etc?
Wasn’t there a large development abandoned the other day in Leeds or possibly Manchester?
 
 
West Baltimore Hausing Project
16:00 / 23.01.08
I've been enjoying the intertwined discussion of markets/recession/CDOs with alternative economies and individual-action security and stability strategies for the future. It's the more-than-one-basket thing. But of course my aesthetics are not everyone's.

Nor mine, indeed. I was wondering about spinning off a thread on how one can hedge climate change, but of course climate change affects resource prices which affects the economy, and so on, so maybe we should keep it all in one bucket.

The CRA and the use of "wrappers" is fascinating, isn't it? If you can recruit a good investment proposition to give your own vehicle a halo effect, is it possible to ascertain with any confidence how secure a venture is? Which is one of those issues that is not especially a problem as long as the inflow of money on risks exceeds the outflow of cash lost on bad investments.

Another interesting, if less technical, article is the recent one by John Lanchester, which I found useful, if a bit chatty. Excerpt:

A customer goes into the bank and deposits £200. Now the bank has £200 to invest, so it goes out and buys some shares with the money: not the full £200, but the amount minus the percentage which it deems prudent to keep in cash, just in case any depositors come and make a withdrawal. That amount, called the ‘cash ratio’, is set by government: in this example let’s say it’s 20 per cent. So our bank goes out and buys £160 of shares from, say, LRB Ltd. Then LRB goes and deposits its £160 in the bank; the bank now has £360 of deposits, of which it needs to keep only 20 per cent – £72 – in cash. So now it can go out and buy another £128 of shares in LRB, raising its total holding in LRB Ltd to £288. Once again, LRB Ltd goes and deposits the money in the bank, which goes out again and buys more shares, and so on the process goes. The only thing imposing a limit is the need to keep 20 per cent in cash, so the depositing-and-buying cycle ends when the bank has £200 in cash – all the cash there is – and £800 in LRB shares; it also has £1000 of customer deposits, the initial £200 plus all the money from the share transactions. The initial £200 has generated a balance sheet of £1000 in assets and £1000 in liabilities. Magic! In real life, it’s even better: the UK cash ratio is 0.15 per cent, so that initial £200 would generate £133,333 on both sides of the balance sheet.

The whole article is here.
 
 
The Idol Rich
17:04 / 23.01.08
The CRA and the use of "wrappers" is fascinating, isn't it?

Well, it is to me, in this case at least, because what use is something that exists purely to advise you how trustworthy something is if it offers no guarantees and can be catastrophically wrong?

If you can recruit a good investment proposition to give your own vehicle a halo effect, is it possible to ascertain with any confidence how secure a venture is? Which is one of those issues that is not especially a problem as long as the inflow of money on risks exceeds the outflow of cash lost on bad investments.

I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here - are you asking if (given that you know you can inflate the creditworthyness of your own vehicle) it is possible to give any credence to another vehicle's credit rating? If that is indeed what you're asking then my answer would be, I guess not, you would certainly be within your rights to treat any such rating with a pinch of salt.

The last bit is just a description/example of fractional reserve banking isn't it?
 
 
grant
17:23 / 23.01.08
Part of the "restructure of society" is basically setting the clock back either 50 or 100 years - it's not so much restructuring as falling back. Less choice, less convenience, possibly less efficiency on a global scale (depending on who you believe). But also less mass produced vegetables being loaded onto gas-guzzling trucks, ships and jets and shipped out to distant cities.

I'm not sure I see that romantically as much as just... old-fashioned. Like wearing worn-out shoes or clothes made from flour sacks. (An older relative was just talking about that the other day - her childhood dresses made from flour sacks. They used to print patterns on the cloth sacks. Nowadays, I guess we'd call it recycling.)

----

By the way, on NPR this morning, they had interviews with Chinese factory workers who were talking about layoffs due to the housing market meltdown. No one's buying the Chinese-made La-Z-Boys.

So, global? Yes.
----

is it possible to ascertain with any confidence how secure a venture is?

This always seems like magic to me. Or "confidence" as marketing.
 
 
grant
19:46 / 23.01.08
Kinda ho-ho-ho affable this is what a recession looks like! piece in the Guardian.
 
 
the andromeda mouse
10:48 / 24.01.08
Oh good, bohemia to return!

The money multiplier effect haus' quote details makes me wonder just how important consumer opinion is in driving a recession or a boom? If a large proportion of the population hears a recession is coming and starts to save rather than spend, this will obviously create the very thing they are hedging against. At what point will a recession happen even in an otherwise stable economy?

The current UK economic indicators don't seem too alarming: employment, vacancies and GDP have all increased, though PPI has also increased more than is healthy so there may be a jump in the cost of living still working its way through the system. And of course this doesn't take into the international picture into account all that well.
 
 
The Idol Rich
12:32 / 24.01.08
The money multiplier effect haus' quote details makes me wonder just how important consumer opinion is in driving a recession or a boom? If a large proportion of the population hears a recession is coming and starts to save rather than spend, this will obviously create the very thing they are hedging against. At what point will a recession happen even in an otherwise stable economy?

But it's the opposite problem at the moment isn't? No-one has been saving, in fact most people are in debt. How healthy is it for a country to keep the economy afloat by spending lots and lots of borrowed money? Not very is what the pundits have been saying for a long time.
Throughout last year it was a surprise to many that despite the credit crunch, the high price of oil etc the markets were remaining buoyant - was it because the markets are not vulnerable to those factors or was it simply optimistic trading with a correction to grossly overvalued stocks due soon?
Chances are that it was optimism and the correction has arrived. The US have tried to stimulate the markets with the rate cut but the UK have not followed suit to date. Prevailing opinion seems to be that a rate cut will arrive soon but maybe not as large as in the US, which seems to imply to me that the Bank of England think that the markets need to take some tough medicine to get themselves back in line with reality (and also that they're keeping one eye on inflation).
 
 
aim for joviality
13:35 / 24.01.08
Guardian blogs on food price inflation in the UK.
 
 
The Idol Rich
14:44 / 24.01.08
Interesting stuff. I remember reading last year that the cheese prices were going to dramatically effect the price of pizza but luckily I haven't noticed that happen yet. I'm on another board where someone did a good post on the subject of food expense and I'm sure they won't mind me putting up part of it here:

"Our expectations of what food 'should' cost have become lower and lower in real terms over the past 30 years or so, most people's food bills do not account for a significant proportion of their expenditure (we spend something like 10% of our income on food now on average, as opposed to a third in the 70s - no time to look for exact figures but you can look them up). This is the result of the cheap food boom, as well as rising incomes. We could afford to pay a lot more if we prioritised food above other things like entertainment and new clothes. And I would argue that we should."

Though of course he's talking about deciding to pay extra to get healthier food, not having to pay more for the same old crap.
 
 
West Baltimore Hausing Project
15:20 / 24.01.08
Well, quite - and it's the people who are already buying the cheapest food possible who are really going to be hit - there are riots in Indonesia at present intermittently over rises in the price of soy beans, because soy beans are the only affordable source of protein for many people.

And even with the cheapest foods, you are probably not exactly paying what it costs, because while the costs of production are factored in (although in the UK, certainly, supermarkets have borne down hard on suppliers, so that margins are slim), the broader environmental costs are not - and this is part of the price increase now being felt - the environmental impact of current farming models and agricultural practice damaging the soil's ability to produce yields, the turning over of agricultural areas to biodieesel or palm oil.

And then, as you say, rising food prices lead to demands for wage rises, which leads to inflation... so, perhaps I spoke too soon, as usual, and you can't separate out the recession from the environment.
 
 
The Idol Rich
10:11 / 25.01.08
So, all this Soc Gen stuff was going on yesterday - as everyone now knows I guess.
The question is, how much of the recent turmoil was due to that?
 
 
The Idol Rich
17:04 / 25.01.08
And if it was mainly down to that doesn't it show how hasty the Fed's interest rate cut was?
 
 
West Baltimore Hausing Project
17:22 / 25.01.08
One man really can make a difference. The moral of the story, surely, being that you shouldn't put the designer of bidding software into a job using it. Recipe for trouble.
 
 
The Idol Rich
17:49 / 25.01.08
One man really can make a difference.

Yes, but my take on it is that the fundamentals are not that good. I'm quite suspicious of the way that the market has risen again, presumably because everyone has gone "oh, so that was what the problem was, let's buy back everything we sold on Monday". He might have been the immediate cause but my guess is that there is more to it. Time will tell.

The moral of the story, surely, being that you shouldn't put the designer of bidding software into a job using it. Recipe for trouble.

You're totally right of course about the safe-guards, seems unbelievable that that kind of oversight could happen these days. I mean, it was more understandable with Nick Leeson when his superiors were simply "old school" bankers who literally didn't understand the securities he was trading. I didn't think that could happen any more.
(Just noticed that oversight is one of those weird words such as "cleave" that means one thing and (almost) its opposite.)
 
 
grant
19:30 / 30.01.08
What were you saying about the cheapest food possible?
 
 
hermetic archipelago
08:29 / 31.01.08
(Just noticed that oversight is one of those weird words such as "cleave" that means one thing and (almost) its opposite.)

and 'sanction'. i think this is a game played by nerds somewhere.

One man really can make a difference.

is he really responsible, or is he a scapegoat? how easy is it to say 'all our worries are due to this criminal', rather than address the absurdity of the whole model? as idol rich implies, it seems that this is more short-term thinking, and i dont think the worlds banks, traders, and governments (especially) will fall for it in the least.

i slogged my way through this painful thread on free markets the other day (yes, it took pretty much the whole day), and it left me wondering where the money comes from when markets create wealth. i understand that its a simulacrum of wealth (i.e. 'value') rather than a growth of resources. but isnt the whole capitalist model based on the idea that there is a 'new world' out there to conquer and exploit? the risk in investment is the probability that new resources will be discovered versus the probability that capital will be spent for nothing. now that we are making (what seems to be) maximum use of the planets resources, this debt crisis has come along to show that we cant just keep creating wealth without some kind of resource to back it up.

i dont mean this to be threadrot, but rather a question of whether free markets are the best way to manage a finite pool of resources (i.e. the planet), in the light of the recent evidence presented by the debt crisis. i guess i agree that the discussions of agrarianism and derivative markets are precisely related.
 
 
grant
04:21 / 01.05.08
Just for the hell of it, here's a reassuring AP piece about people selling heirlooms on Craigslist to pay the water bill.
 
  

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