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No Question Will Be Mocked

 
 
Benny the Ball
21:22 / 03.03.07
As with most of the surgery threads on other fora, this is a place to ask literary questions, things that you may have known or have forgotten, things that you never understood, things that you may have missed when reading books. There are bound to be spoilers, so let's have some respect and appropriate spoiler gaps etc - oh and if you can bolden the questions to stand out, that may help.

So, to get the ball rolling, a question about the end of the Illuminatus! Trilogy;

P
O
S
S
I
B
L
E

SPOILER



So, in The Illuminatus! Trilogy - is the Laviathan supposed to be us, the reader?
 
 
Benny the Ball
22:42 / 07.04.07
Okay....fine.

Another question;

Can anyone recommend a good book about the history of the CIA?
 
 
All Acting Regiment
01:55 / 08.04.07
Good thread. My question is: what was the whole war-with-Troy thing all about, anyway?
 
 
matthew.
02:35 / 08.04.07
History of the CIA:

The Company by Robert Littell
Harlot's Ghost by Norman Mailer.
 
 
Decadent Daytripper in Love
(prev. Decadent Daytripper Falls Up)
03:14 / 08.04.07
Why isn't the exclamation mark used more in prose? Sparingly in fiction, virtually never in nonfiction... and yet we live in and often write about a very exciting state of being. With no '!' to be seen.
 
 
matthew.
04:51 / 08.04.07
Why isn't the colon ever used anymore...

I said to her: "Don't you dare. Don't-you-dare."
Smirking, she replied: "Why not? What have you ever done for me?"
"Nothing." I walked to the mirror and said: "Nothing."
 
 
Decadent Daytripper in Love
(prev. Decadent Daytripper Falls Up)
05:21 / 08.04.07
The only really good/effective ways to use a colon in storytelling are ungrammatical, I'm afraid. Look at 'Ulysses' which may have more colons than periods, and, I mean it's gorgeously done, but it's not grammatical. And somehow, in the past thirty or forty years there's been a steady training of everyone that good writing is always grammatical.
 
 
West Baltimore Hausing Project
06:33 / 08.04.07
The colon has plenty of uses. It just doesn't introduce direct speech anymore. The exclamation mark is used for exclamations.

Good thread. My question is: what was the whole war-with-Troy thing all about, anyway?

How much detail would be appropriate, Legba?
 
 
at the scarwash
09:04 / 08.04.07
Cloak and Gown: Scholars in the Secret War, 1939-1961 is a meticulously researched history of the birth of the OSS and its evolution into the CIA, focusing on the (largely Yale-based) academics who founded it.
 
 
Benny the Ball
10:09 / 08.04.07
Matt & Scarwash - ooh, thank you. I've got Harlot's Ghost, but the other two look great.

Allecto - short answer, women.

Daytripper - the exclamation mark has become associated more with irony or lightheartedness, especially in non-fiction. I seem to recall that it is used quite a lot in the Harry Potter books though?
 
 
matthew.
10:38 / 08.04.07
Mister the Ball, The Company is a really neat little archetypal spy story wrapped up in a long sociological history of spying in the US. There's defections, counter-intelligence, triple-agents, training, all from the beginning to the fall of the Soviets. It's extremely engrossing, the political and sociological stuff and the plot is a ripper, too. Recommended if not for the tender ending.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
15:18 / 08.04.07
How much detail would be appropriate, Legba?

Well, I've read the Iliad and the Odyssey, and read a lot around them, but have had little discussion with other people, so pretty much anything anyone had to say here would only be useful!
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
(prev. King of Iron Pants)
21:34 / 01.10.07
Are any of those Warhammer 40k books any good? I kind of like the setting, but the back cover summaries of the few I browsed made them look, ugh. Any recommendations from someone who's tried em?
 
 
Nick's Experimental Wrongness
21:46 / 01.10.07
It's the semi-colon you want to watch. That's a decent piece of punctuation, despite what you might read in the Book Of The Panda.
 
 
DavidXBrunt
14:52 / 02.10.07
Red - I've never read any but have appeared in one. On the basis of their works elsewhere I can recommend any books written by Dan Abnett, Simon Spurrier, and Gordon Rennie. All three are decent prose story tellers with experiene in writing shared world fiction. That's about all you need when it comes to tie-in books, right?

Abnett is particularly liked by those that read them.
 
 
Aimes
15:33 / 02.10.07
Anyone know any good Tomb Raider style books? Kind of pulpy treasure hunter adventure things?
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
(prev. King of Iron Pants)
17:45 / 02.10.07
I've never read any but have appeared in one.

neat! how'd that happen? or is it a boring story?

thanks for the recommendation!
 
 
MattShepherd: LARGELY ABSENT!
18:33 / 02.10.07
Aimes, if you haven't discovered the glorious pulp world of Doc Savage and the Avenger, you're really really really missing out. Eight billion times cooler than Tomb Raider.

A lot o' racial/cultural/gender baggage given that they were written in the '30s and onwards, but a blast nonetheless.
 
 
DavidXBrunt
15:34 / 03.10.07
Red- it's as dull as my being known to one of the writers of the books in question.

Anyone have any recommendations for good, detailed, but accesible for non-specialist readers on the history, habits, and mythology of Hares?
 
 
Knight's Move
10:50 / 12.10.07
For 'War on Troy'. At a simple level the Gods failed to invite Eris (hello Illuminatus Triology) to a party because she was the Goddess of Discord. She was upset and rolled a golden apple marked "to the most beautiful". Athena, Hera and Aphrodite all claimed it, Zeus did not want to judge that one so he got Paris in. They tried to bribe him with victory, riches and beauty. He chose beauty because as the son of King Priam he could get the other two. Aphrodite rewarded him with Helen, who was engaged to Menelaus, Paris stole her away whilst a guest of Menelaus thus insulting him on two levels and he gathered the other Greeks to invade.

Ok, simple enough...however, in about 480BC Euripides (imo the greatest of the Greek writers) comes along and starts subverting the whole affair. For starters he has a go at Gods and Heroes and then starts in on the war. His plays include the Herodotian idea that Helen never actually got to Troy, stopping at Egypt thus making the whole thing pointless as it was fought over a phantasm. He writes The Women of Troy from the point of view of the bound women awaiting slavery contemplating the ruin of Troy and the deaths of their husbands and sons. It would be much like someone writing Henry V from the point of view of the inhabitants of Harfleur...he writes Iphigenia as murdered by her father for victory (thus sparking the Grendel's mother-esque vengance of Clytemnestra which brings in the Oresteia). He delights in taking great 'Heroes' and showing their feet of clay.

He writes all this as not only an attack on the cherished idea of the Trojan War as great victory but also as a direct political allegory for the behaviour of the Athenians in their very current warfare on people around them. This upset the Athenians not a little and he went into exile where he was possibly torn apart by dogs in a hunting accident.
 
 
West Baltimore Hausing Project
12:34 / 12.10.07
I haven't heard of Euripides being exiled or torn apart by wild dogs...

Otherwise, the story of the apple is broadly correct, but not actually mentioned much in the Iliad - only once, at the end, and then briefly. The story of the Judgement of Paris is covered in a lost epic called the Cypria, written as, in effect, a prequel to the Iliad. The party is the wedding banquet for Peleus and Thetis, the parents of Achilles - so we're back to the workings of fate, there.

So, Aphrodite gets the apple from Paris, and he steals Helen from Menelaus. Helen has already been abducted once, by Theseus and Pirithous. She was rescued by the Dioskouri, who nicked Theseus' mother as payback. This sort of thing happens a lot. To forestall further problems, the leaders of the Greeks signed a pact during the contest for her hand of mutual protection, stating that they would ally to return Helen to her eventual husband - who turned out to be Menelaus. This was Odysseus' idea, proving once and for all that it's not a good idea to be smart. That leads on to the sacrifice of Iphigenia, the seige of Troy and all that beastliness.

Couple of minor notes - Helen is generally identified as the daughter of Zeus by Leda, hatched from an egg after Zeus ravished her in the guise of a swan. The Cypria, though, has her as the child of Zeus and Nemesis, given to Leda to raise. Either way, her twin is Clytaemestra - it's a bit of a family affair all round. The Cypria starts with Zeus plannign to reduce the population of the world, and the Trojan War, along with the Theban war, is seen as part of this divine plan. As Knight's Move says, some patterns exonerate Helen in one way or another - Herodotus has her held in Egypt, as does Euripides - these probably sharing a common ancestor in Stesichorus, allegedly struck blind for dissing Helen in one poem, and cured by recanting with the claim that she was not at Troy. However, the Helen in the Iliad, and then the Odyssey, appears to have been to Troy and back.

Thucydides suggests that the war was actually over trade routes, and that the whole Helen business was PR. Cynic.
 
 
Knight's Move
14:03 / 12.10.07
To be fair exile is slightly strong, he accepted an invitation from King Archelaus to live in Macedonia towards the end of his life but by that point the political climate in Athens was such that he may well have moved before being pushed as others were.

The dogs thing is one of the more bizzare legends. It is very unlikely compared to, say, dying of the cold but I quite like it...the chances are it's a biographical conflation from the fate of Pentheus owing to the abscence of real details about his end. This explanantion is made more likely as another legend says he was ripped apart by women.
 
 
West Baltimore Hausing Project
14:25 / 12.10.07
If I can still get women to rip me apart in my 70s, I shall be a very happy man.

Righty - question: Doris Lessing. In what way is her sci-fi sci-fi or not sci-fi?
 
 
Jack Fear
14:35 / 12.10.07
Lessing's was science fiction because she said it was science fiction, and because internal evidence in the text tended to back her up on that assertion.

Some literary critics insisted that Lessing's science fiction wasn't really science fiction; their arguments tended to boil down to Lessing not being a moron writing for an audience of mental defectives, but instead a bright, learned woman writing respectfully for cultivated, thoughtful readers.

Which says more about the state of literary criticism than about Doris Lessing, really, or even about the general quality of science fiction writing.
 
 
Notes from Boris-town
(prev. Now: Nolte with added Flyboy!)
14:50 / 12.10.07
My answer is that she's written very much mainstream sci-fi in the same vein as Margaret Atwood, PK Dick, Ray Bradbury, H.G. Wells or Greg Bear. She uses the classic sci-fi trope of introducing a pseudo-scientific novum. I'm leaning on a formalist account of the genre here, summarised thusly:

"Science fiction, in Darko Suvin’s formalist account of the genre, is identified by the narratological deployment of a “novum”—a scientific or technological “cognitive innovation” as extrapolation or deviation from present-day realities—that becomes “‘totalizing’ in the sense that it [the novum] entails a change in the whole universe of
the tale.”
- from here

Like most good sci-fi writers (and indeed most good writers) she uses the conventions of sci-fi to illuminate and critique moral, social and political systems.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
19:17 / 25.02.08
Anyone know any good books with Soho, the French Pub, Francis Bacon and so on in them?
 
 
Mick Mak Mok
20:21 / 25.02.08
'Dog Days in Soho' by Nigel Richardson (I think?) is a fine example. Part biog and part fiction, it picks up the trail via Josh Avery, an old aquaintance of the author. A naval deserter who wound up among the Bacon/Farson enclave in the 50s, his propensity for popping up in the margins of a number of key images of the time is admirable. The book mixes reminiscence and interview with a kind of feverish gonzo performance from the author himself. I got mine for 2 quid in a factory outlet somewhere in the suburbs.

Strongly recommended.

Also, have you seen 'Love is the Devil'? Jacobi as Bacon and Daniel Craig as Dwyer, all directed with lunatic verve by Derek Maybury.
 
 
Mick Mak Mok
20:26 / 25.02.08
Uh, make that John Maybury. Too much Jarman in the air.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
13:27 / 26.02.08
Keith Waterhouse's Soho (set in the 90s) has everything but the Bacon, I think.
 
  
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