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Meditation: Let's Talk Shop

 
  

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Doc Checkmate
20:19 / 03.08.06
I know there are more meditation threads on this board than there are varieties of Heinz food product, but I think this topic is sufficiently distinct to merit a new one. And anyway, I preferred to start a topic rather than build on top of a lot of deadwood.

Gypsy's mention (in the Gek thread) of his efforts to start up with regular meditation got me thinking: I'm in the early stages of a daily practice myself, I'd love to chat the subject out with wise and insightful 'lithers, and I don't really see much of that going on. I'm hoping that those of us with a meditation practice, or those of us working on developing one, might use this thread to share information--not speculation, but what we are actually doing and why. We could discuss the various techniques and traditions that inform our meditation, the difficulties that arise in our practice, our expectations, the ways we integrate meditation into our personal styles of spiritual work, the results we see (for people who are comfortable sharing that), and so on. Meditation can be incredibly rewarding, but it can also be a daunting venture. I think we can really help each other out here.

Ultimately, this could be a resource for beginning or aspiring meditators. Every time the Temple has tackled one of the Big Basic Practices of magic (the LBRP, journeying, deity work, etc), I've found it incredibly helpful. And in the spirit of compiling a useful body of information, let's do try and keep things specific, intelligent, and grounded firmly in personal experience, time-tested tradition, or modern science. It's very easy to get vague and all-encompassing when defining and discussing meditation. The term does embrace a wide breadth of practices, but painting with all the colors of the wind is not meditation, and I don't care if I'm being narrow-minded.

That said, I hope people will find it rewarding to contribute to this thread. Meditation is both a solitary practice and, for a magician, an Oriental cutting transplanted onto an Occidental stalk. For these reasons, it tends to stand apart from the other fundamentals of Western magic and consequently receives less attention. Hopefully we can find our way around that here. I'll post a bit about my own, very new practice soon, once I've got my thoughts together on the subject.
 
 
Ev
20:52 / 03.08.06
I'll start.

Right now, I do Liber Resh four times a day and the LBRP once or twice a day. (It used to be twice a day every day, but I've been busy.) I've talked about those in other places, and since they're not necessarily classic "meditation" I'll leave them aside for now.

I also do Iyengar-style hatha yoga with my wife two or three times a week. Again, since I'm not sure this is what Doc is getting at I'll skip this for the moment, although I'll note that it's fantastic for both mind and body, and that it's the single best physical, mental, and spiritual self-improvement technique I've ever done in my life.

Finally, I do sorta-zazen mediation when I can. I've done it on and off (mostly off) for twenty years or so.

The technique is classic but simple: face a wall, sit cross-legged in sukhasana (I can do lotus, but not comfortably or for long) with a bit of support under the butt from a folded blanket or a zafu, keep my eyes half open but focused on nothing in particular, and count my unforced breaths. When I get to 10, or if I lose track, I start at 1 again. If my thoughts wander, I gently bring them back to the counting.

At best, I do it for half an hour in the morning and half an hour in the evening. The effect is pretty profound: even immediately afterwards I feel more calm and relaxed, and when I do it regularly over time I feel substantially more focused, thoughtful, calm, and relaxed.
 
 
Doc Checkmate
21:13 / 03.08.06
Evski: I think the LBRP and Liber Resh are totally worth talking about here in their meditative capacities. I didn't mean to come off as a hard-ass when suggesting that we should keep the discussion from oozing over the borders of meditation. To me, Resh and the LBRP are both simple, focused techniques for directing the mind at an object or objects.

In the same way, the vajrayana Buddhist school to which I belong has a vast number of "meditations" that stray very far from the traditional idea of focusing on the breath or a simple image. To me, the tantric practices which distinguish the vajrayana are essentially Buddhist magic (my teachers would wince to hear that), and yet they are no less "meditative" for it. Many of them involve a combination of chanting, shifting mudra patterns, and complex visualizations. The purpose is to simultaneously engage all parts of the human organism, as conceived by the Vajrayana--body, speech, and mind--and direct them towards the object of practice. This seems to me like a counterpart to the 777-wielding practice of building up your ritual space with correspondences so that every inch of it reflects the intent of the working. There's also lots of identifying yourself with a Buddha or deity. Invocation, obviously, or rather something similar.

I think the "meditation" bit of these tantric practice, as well as of the Western practices you mentioned, exists in the states of mind underlying them. The mantras or mudras, the circumambulations or the godforms are not the meditation. The meditation is in the mindfulness (or concentration, or whatever you want to call it) that drives the mind into these objects in an arrow-straight vector.
 
 
Doc Checkmate
21:32 / 03.08.06
(Mods, please forgive the multi-post)

The tantric stuff I mentioned above usually only comes into play once a week for me, when my local vajrayana center here in Buenos Aires holds a puja. My daily practice is actually much more in the traditional vein: straight-up Buddhist samatha, or tranquility, meditation. I base my method on the instructions given by Theravadin monks in the Thai Forest Tradition. The Theravada isn't my chosen school of Buddhism, but a) screw sectarianism, and b) the Thai Forest monks are straight up gangstas when it comes to samatha. I can give a basic description of what I do in a few sentences, and it's actually very similar to Evski's zazen practice. Alternatively, I can dig up the longer explanation (including some theory) that I gave to my girlfriend when teaching her how to meditate, turn the google-talk transcript into something a little more concise and polished, and post that. Does anyone have a preference?
 
 
Rex Feral
22:37 / 03.08.06
The longer please. More info the better. Incidentally, have you come across David Smith's stuff? He was a Theravada Buddhist (not sure if he still is), who began his training in Zen. His book, Record of Awakening, is basically what it says on the tin an account of his experience of "enlightenment" within that tradition. A fasinating read. Link here.

I will summon up the energy to write about my own practice at some point, seem curiously lacking in enthusiam right now. But a starter for ten, to what extent do people feel their mediation practice connects with daily life? Not in terms of immediately after meditiating but in terms of the whole day. I think this is key, myself.
 
 
Jared Louderback
07:27 / 04.08.06
Good chirst, I got on the barb specifically with a question about this stuff, and I find they made a tailor made thread for it just some hours ago.

Anyhow, I'm just starting to get into Hindu stuff, and I'd really like to know how to do their meditation/breathing stuff, but I really have no idea how to do any of that.

Is there a solid book on the subject I could read, or am I going to have to find a Yogi or... someone to teach me how, and if so, where do I find such a person?
 
 
Rex Feral
08:03 / 04.08.06
Nope, you have to do something a lot more difficult .... sit down and actually do it. You might begin with asking yourself what you hope to get out of it and what your expectations are. If you want a simple practice to try, follow Evesig's advice above, sit comfortably and count your breaths, say 1-7, and repeat. That's it.

More to follow.
 
 
Unconditional Love
15:23 / 04.08.06
When i do the LBRP (which isnt often enough) i have introduced elements from other practices into it, i start standing in the void position common to internal martial arts and chi gung, i use my fingers as a wand and use mudra associations to each finger, ring finger earth, little water, thumb fire, index air, middle spirit (akasha).

I use the middle finger for the cross for example, and the appropriate finger for the element (thou having just considered it it would be possible to assign the differing fingers to the cross).

As i expand my arms into the cross to welcome the angels i am reminded of crane style kung fu, angels and cranes arent too disimilar either. i push out with the hands pointing upwards, also an arm streghtening exercise from kung fu, but it also clears stagnant chi from the arms.

I relax back into the void and then become the cross of light again.

I think in a way even without my additions the LBRP can be compared to a western form of chi gung. I should emphasise that breathing is very important for me when i perform this, low diaphram breathing.

I tend to get pulsing shakes from this exercise, much like i did from certain forms of chi gung. I also think its very important to vibrate the names as if they were mantras, i include the name aiwass at the heart, which i understand as the sun, the bringer of light.
 
 
Doc Checkmate
16:23 / 04.08.06
Ok, here is an initial post on my own practice. It just provides some background info on the style of meditation I'm working with. I'm typing up actual instructions for my practice in between stretches of office work, and I'll post them when they're done. I hope all this is of interest or use to someone. It's going to end up fairly long; God go with you.

Meditation style: samatha (tranquility meditation)
Tradition: Buddhism
Sub-style: Theravada school, Thai Forest tradition

THE BACKGROUND

The basic deal in non-tantric Buddhist meditation is that there are two types, tranquility meditation, which is called samatha (sha-MA-ta), and insight meditation, which is called vipassana (vih-PAH-sa-na). Samatha is nothing really new; the Buddha learned it from yogis when he was still just a dude named Siddhartha Gautama trying to figure things out. It's his own formulation and teaching, along with some elaborations, but on the whole it’s based on principles that he did not discover. Some of you guys will notice the obvious kinship with the later stages of Patanjali-style Raja Yoga. Raja Yoga and samatha are basically different spins on the same samadhic, or concentrative, practice.

Anyway, samatha's main purpose in Buddhism is to sharpen up the mind to make it a better tool for vipassana meditation, which is supposed to be the real key to Buddhist enlightenment. But samatha has a few side-purposes. One is that it gives you feelings of tranquility and peace, hence the name. Another is that if practiced to an advanced level, it gives you complete control over the focus of your mind. The idea here is that a fully realized samatha meditator can bring his attention single-pointedly on an object, with literally no wavering whatsoever.

If the object is simple enough to require no discursive thought in contemplating it (e.g. the breath or a colored circle, as opposed to a complex conceptual object), then the meditator can manifest a one-pointedness powerful enough to shut his senses off and blast him into hours-long bliss states called jhanas.

(By the way, the word “jhana” is Pali, and its Sanskrit equivalent is “dhyana.” So there’s our homie Patanjali again, although the word is used slightly differently here. Interestingly, the Japanese equivalent is the word “zen.”)

You can't actually form thoughts or intentions while in a jhana, but tradition and contemporary monks state that in the time just after emerging from a jhana, your mind is so malleable and powerful that you can remember your own past lives or (if it was a very exalted jhana and if you do a little extra work) obtain supernormal powers.

In the sutras, the Buddha's disciples are always reading minds and flying all over the damn place and teleporting to the heavenly realms and whatnot. The powers are seen mainly as a distraction from the work of enlightenment, but their use isn't prohibited as in yoga.

But again, the primary Buddhist purpose of samatha is to make the mind calmer and a more suitable tool for concentration, allowing the meditator to better investigate fundamental truths and practice insight meditation.

Next time: how YOU can find inner peace and experience mystical bliss! It's a cacophonic crescendo of contemplative cogitation with Ma Checkmate's brown-eyed baby boy! Nuff said!
 
 
Ev
17:33 / 04.08.06
In further response to Jared's question, the simplest form of Hindu-ish meditation you can do is to simply sit in a more-or-less comfortable position, let your body, thoughts, and breath settle, and either think or intone that good ol' standard "Om" (or better yet, "Aum") with your exhalations.

Here are a couple of nice little articles on the subject, with lots of links.

If you're interested in Hindu "breathing stuff," an excellent, incredibly detailed book is B.K.S. Iyengar's "Light on Pranayama."

But most serious teachers require that you obtain a fair amount of skill with the physical postures of yoga before starting on pranayama -- otherwise (regardless of what Crowley, Robert Anton Wilson, etc. say) you can fuck yourself up bad.
 
 
Doc Checkmate
17:51 / 04.08.06
That second article is fantastic. Comprehensive but concise. Nice one, Ev.
 
 
aim for joviality
18:04 / 04.08.06
My current practice is pretty freeform compared to those above described, but since it is working for me I'll describe a little. It's insight meditation, pretty much.

I see the creative part of my brain - call it right-brain for short - as a wild & divinely connected other. In my experience it operates in phenomenological mode, deeply connected into the web of all beings in the world, so connecting with it helps align me with my purpose.

I do lots of difference reflective practices to connect with this divine creative energy. Sometimes I do free drawing, with pencils or colours. I do free writing as well sometimes, and I improvise music with instruments or voice etc as I hear it in response to careful listening to the place around me. I dance, especially if I have access to a stereo and a private space. Sometimes I write down a question from myself and wait to be dictated the answer. Sometimes I chat with stones, plants, insects that I encounter as teachers or fellow-practitioners.

I try to dedicate at least a total of one hour a day to this stuff - and often in 5ish, 15ish, or 30ish minute sections depending on what else is on. For me the crucial thing is, it needs to be fun because otherwise the wild mind doesn't show. Hence, it's responsive - "ooh, I finished that, I'll go out in the woods for half an hour now".. Or - "I just got home, I'll put the kettle on and dance to two tracks" - following my feet or my elbows or a particular vertebra in my spine, to listen, to find out how my body is and what it has to teach me right now.

It feels like it has taken me a long long time to settle to a meditation practice I could keep using, and this very flexible but still non-optional kind does it for me. I think the effect it has is to keep me grounded in my body/self & it fulfils my own needs so I'm available to a greater extent to serve in the rest of my life.
 
 
XK
19:48 / 04.08.06
I just got home, I'll put the kettle on and dance to two tracks" - following my feet or my elbows or a particular vertebra in my spine, to listen, to find out how my body is and what it has to teach me right now.

I've been doing a lot of dancing meditation lately. I'll start by running through my belly dancing drills and stretches then just shifting into ecstatic dance. Aferwards I'll use Savasana (corspe pose) to really deepen the mediatation.

I'm starting to use more self bondage as well with suspension rigging to place myself off the earth to mediatate.
 
 
Doc Checkmate
20:51 / 04.08.06
Ok, continuing from my last "my practice" post-

Meditation Style: samatha
Tradition: Buddhism
Sub-Style: Theravada school, Thai Forest tradition

THE INSTRUCTIONS

First, pick an object to serve as the focus of your meditation.

The Buddha provided forty options, which vary in their ability to enable jhana and in the level of jhana which can be reached with them. Each also has qualities that make it better or worse for certain personality types or intellects, and this enabled a senior monk to custom-fit a meditation practice for each of his disciples.

The objects are, in brief: four elements, represented in material objects; four colors, in the form of colored circles; light; space; ten kinds of foulness in the form of contemplation of ten kinds of decaying corpse (yum); eight recollections of Buddhist principles; mindfulness of the body; and mindfulness of the breath.

Kids, if you’re gonna try this stuff at home, go with a colored circle (the sutras say white or a primary color) or the breath. They’re simple, and for this reason they’re also maxed-out in their jhana-obtaining capacities. The breath is most convenient, in my opinion; for the circles, you actually need a physical one to look at for the early stages of the practice. Breath is more portable. Breath is also the object the Buddha himself used to initially reach the jhanas. As I understand it, once you’ve developed powerful samadhi with one object, the others are easy, just as a weightlifter can lift any heavy object just as easily as the barbells he trained on.

When I say “breath,” the actual object I’m describing is the tactile sensation of the breath at the nostrils. Some teachers say the sensation of the rising and falling of the abdomen is good; some say it’s too coarse. Some say that you can focus on the overall “feeling” of breathing without specifying a bodily location; some say it’s too coarse. Most teachers say that you should NOT follow the progress of the breath through your body, but rather find a spot where the breath generates a sensation and hang out there. Pretty much all teachers say that the nostrils are good, so that’s what I use simply to avoid controversy.

I’ll use a blue circle as the example for the rest of this thread, maybe interrupting that every now and then to talk about the breath. Anyway, the actual instructions:

You sit with your back straight and unsupported. I’ve recently strained my knees, so I’m sitting in a chair until they feel better. A chair is fine. So is cross-legged or kneeling (it can be good to buy a little meditation bench to keep your butt off your calves). As long as your back is straight and vertical, you’re good—lying down isn’t recommended, as it’s very easy to fall asleep.

You direct your attention to the object and rest your mind on it. You don’t really want to think about it, just observe it. Try not to generate inner commentary about the blue circle, like “hm, it’s a dark shade of blue,” or “it’s about 9 inches in diameter” or “I’m looking at a blue circle” or “Why the hell did they cancel Arrested Development” or anything else. Just observe the visual sense perception of the blue circle. Some teachers call this “bare attention.”

But at the same time, and I think this is important, you don’t have to beat yourself up when other thoughts come into your head. When you notice you’ve been carried away on a train of discursive thought, just go back to the object. A lot of hack meditation instructions involve trying to only think about one thing, trying to suppress other thoughts. As far as I can tell, that can’t be done by force. Trying not to think about something has the opposite of the intended effect and is usually pretty frustrating. It’s counterproductive. One metaphor likens the mind to a lake, the movement of attention away from the object to an item dropped into the lake, and stray thoughts as ripples. Trying to forcibly suppress the thoughts is like trying to smooth out the ripples with your hands. Relax about the ripples and keep your focus on learning to stop dropping crap into the lake. Stray thoughts are inevitable unless you’re already one-pointed in your meditation, so don’t sweat them. Turn away from them (without berating yourself) when they intrude, gently but firmly returning to the tactile sensation of the breath or the visual sensation of the circle. If you do this, the thoughts will begin to slow down and eventually stop on their own.

I know this whole thing could have been encapsulated by saying “Sit with your back straight, keep your attention on the sense perception of the object, and don’t worry about stray thoughts but return to the breath promptly when they intrude.” Just felt like being thorough and putting the extra info up.

Next time: stages of attainment, or what’s supposed to happen to your noggin after doing this stuff for a while. The practice sign, access concentration, the counterpart sign, and the bliss states of jhana.
 
 
Doc Checkmate
20:58 / 04.08.06
I improvise music with instruments or voice etc as I hear it in response to careful listening to the place around me.

Can you sing with all the voices of the mountain?

Sometimes I do free drawing, with pencils or colours.

Can you paint with all the colors of the wind?
 
 
Doc Checkmate
03:19 / 05.08.06
Ok, I want to take a break from the posts detailing my practice--instead of rattling off the specifics of my meditation like a poorly-written textbook, I'd really rather start engaging with people and sharing ideas. I'll post stuff about the jhanas (which really are fascinating and worth talking about) a little later.

I think GH's question about meditation's day-long effects is a key one--after all, how great can meditation be if its benefits are confined to a teensy fraction of your day? I have to run and don't have time to answer at length, but I'll start with just one specific area: sleep. I was suffering from insomnia prior to starting my daily meditation practice, and now I go to sleep easy as sighing. I get into bed and make a very relaxed samatha on something convenient, like the feeling of my head on the pillow or the blanket against my hip. This keeps my mood tranquil and my mind from racing. I let my attention weaken and spiral away naturally as sleep overtakes me. Easy-peasy. I fall asleep more quickly and easily now than I did even before the onset of my insomnia. I don't use my meditation object, the breath, because I don't want to associate it with my bedtime practice of actually letting drowsy sleep-thoughts carry me off.

Also, since I upped my practice to two forty-five minute sessions a day, my dreams have been consistently vivid and meaningful. I went spontaneously lucid in one last week and had a hell of a time. Less of the "meaningful," that one, and more of the "flying around and blowing shit up."

So there are some of the concrete benefits that meditation has brought to my life beyond actual sitting sessions. There are others, of course. My practice is changing me for the better and making me happier, plain and simple. I feel it, and the people around me have noticed a difference.
 
 
Rex Feral
12:58 / 05.08.06
Great post, Saturn’s Nod, I might nick some of that! I mentioned in the magical tools thread that I like colouring sometimes, just simple shapes with no intent, I tried this originally as a Bates Method eye exercise but as it turns out, it’s quite a restful activity in it’s own right. The sort of play one did as a child before such things were deemed pointless by the protestant work ethic!

Dr C. – technical question re. visualisig static geometric shapes. I’ve tried this on and off for years but I still find this incredibly fucking difficult. The shape distorts move around etc etc. – will do anything in fact rather than stay still. It almost seems to keep it still goes against the basic fluxing nature of the mind. Any thoughts? I did see some improvement after a few months of practice, but not much. I suspect I’m missing the context that you have i,e. the connection with some Buddhist teachings (going to come back to meditation and context below).

I actually did a divination about this the last time I tried it and got back Hex. 25 (Innocence) turning into 33. (Duration). As I emphasis the first hexagram a lot more than the second, I felt the I Ching was commenting on the basic nature of mind i.e. it’s “innocent” and one can reach for this easily. Mind doesn’t need to be pushed and pulled around, you just have to allow a bit of space for the “innocence” to arise. Some techniques seem more restful and simple than this – the few Taoist meditations I’ve learned are very much like this.

Incidentally, David Smith mentions concentration type jnanas in his book, he states that the monks he lived with were quite proficient at them, but discouraged him from following in their path as they generate a lot of physical and emotional bliss that one can get attached to, and this would’ve cut across the work he was doing with insight meditation.

Anyway, I wanted to make a brief point about meditation and context/connection, following my question above. It’s my belief that your meditation practice should be connected to your daily life in some way. Just as if one were practising hoodoo, you’d utilise your environment, both for ingredients to feed your rituals, make your potions etc. as well as being the arena for it’s eventual outcome, well, I don’t really see meditation as any different.

For me, when I learnt to mediate it was very much about freeing myself from the of my internal dialogue. I connected this with sensory attention exercises and this was something that has really enhanced my experience of everyday life, and helped me cultivate a sense of the present much more than I had previously. For others, this connection with the world might take a variety of forms from Tonglen (compassion) practice through to meditation on mental formulations that give you grief (kleshas). I suppose I’m making two points here – one, that there’s a huge variety of different techniques suborned under the category “Meditation”, and two, making a connection to one’s daily life is really important, otherwise (following Doc C's post above) one might see it just as a “skill” you cultivate in the abstract with no real purpose behind it. Not that this is a bad thing per se, it’s just that it might lock you off from the deeper side of your practice.
 
 
Doc Checkmate
14:20 / 05.08.06
Saturn's Nod has expressed some objection to my short post made in response to hir. That's fair, and as my response contained both an apology and some thoughts on the purpose of this thread, I'm going to post it here:

Frankly, I was hoping to draw your attention to my statement in the first post, essentially the mission statement for the thread. As you say you went to Google to figure out what the hell I was talking about, I'm not sure if you read it or if I was clear. In that post, I pointed out the danger of exploding the boundaries the "meditation" category and indicated my readiness to zealously patrol those boundaries for the sake of the thread's cogency, even to the point of risking over-exclusion. The point of my (admittedly sardonic) "voices of the mountain" post was to show that you'd essentially done what I was hoping wouldn't happen, listing and very briefly describing a grab bag of vaguely contemplative activities. My intention was to alert you to this so as to galvanize you into avoiding it in future thread posts. I had no intention to put you off posting, and I'm sorry if that was the result. I should realize, especially given the recent pillorying of our most noted tough love guru, that sometimes more sensitivity is required. Also, Giant Haystacks seems to really like the post, so I may just be off base here altogether. Either way, I sincerely apologize for the approach I took.

Now, just to clarify, I don't think there's anything wrong with contemplative dance or art or what have you. I certainly believe that these can be meditative activities, and talking about them in the thread is great as it may turn others onto them and enrich their practice. However, my wish is that within the context of the "Let's Talk Shop" thread, if one is going to discuss activities which diverge from "pure meditation" in the traditional sense, but which include meditative elements, the post will focus on how those elements inform and influence the practice. Forgive me, but I feel like your post was mainly a superficial description of your practices and limited its discussion of the meditative elements to nebulous mentions of your creative right brain, connecting with the "web of all beings," and being "taught". There were parts I thought were spot-on and very useful, as they touched on your actual inner processes as you did these activities--for instance, your mention that it has to be fun to coax out your creativity. Excellent point, I think, and useful for meditators. I was just hoping that a little goading might spur you to expand the discussion of these genuine insights into your unique and interesting contemplative practice.

(GH, I actually do have what might be an answer to your question about visualizing shapes. In the Theravada at least, meditation on visual objects is usually begun with an actual physical representation of the object placed in front of you. Although you close your eyes when meditating on the breath, you want the eyes open when the object is visual. The accepted wisdom here is that after a while, the brain will begin to generate what's called the practice sign, an exact visualized replica of the object which exists in your mind's eye without effort on your part. When this happens, simply close your eyes and continue your meditation with the practice sign as your object rather than the actual physical thing.)
 
 
Rex Feral
15:06 / 05.08.06
I think there's a potentially interesting discussion to be had here about what constitutes the boundaries of meditation. Not really sure how to start it though. How about, is any creative activity where we lose ourselves, a meditation (ie. martial arts forms have often been described to me as meditations soley because of the fact their speed and complexity steps one out of oneself)? If not, why not?

Anyway, Doc C - cheers for that. That's really interesting and useful. What I've done previously is to meditate for a while on a drawn shape and then shut my eyes after a while. This seemed to produce much better results than visualisng a solely abstract shape, I guess because you're drawing on your sensorium and connecting that to the experience rather than than trying to disconnect with it altogether. I think where I've been going wrong is not doing this (the staring at the shape bit) for long enough. Please post more. Fascinating stuff.
 
 
Doc Checkmate
15:28 / 05.08.06
Quick postie, then I gotta run--will follow up either today or Monday (got a meditation retreat, ironically, then flying back to the states Sunday).

When the Theravadins talk about the practice sign emerging after some time, they mean, like... months. Something more in that ball park. I was vague there, so that's my bad. The practice sign is an indication of some moderate attainment in meditation after a period of regular practice. This ties in with the next bit about my own practice style I was planning on posting, which deals with the stages of attainment and what actually goes on in a phenomenological sense as you progress. Have a good weekend, all!
 
 
aim for joviality
16:17 / 05.08.06
My intention was to share what feel very hardwon insights about 1) how to fit my practice into daily life between lab, office, library etc, and 2) how to maintain consistent effective practice (the points about fun & variety). I considered those points to be specific, well grounded and from my experience. It probably would have been clearer if I had quoted GH's to what extent do people feel their meditation practice connects with daily life?

Doc Checkmate's point about staying with similarities & not focusing on differences from sitting meditation is the reason I did not go into more detail about practices such as freewriting (for which Julia Cameron's The Artist's Way I found to be an awesome resource) and freedrawing (e.g., as in the work of Shaun McNiff). I think they too are simple, focused techniques for directing the mind towards insight: they are the most effective tools I have found for finding insight so how could it be justified to exclude them from a discussion of insight meditation techniques?

I don't know if it would be of interest to anyone if I was to describe in more detail how I do, say, freedrawing. I find blow by blow details a bit boring, because what helps me learn is hearing about the attitudes that help people actually get on and do it (as prev mentioned by GH) hence my emphasis on that part of the concrete description. I think it might not matter much what people do as long as we get on and do something consistently.

I also think it's a very important point that people who are ready to take up daily practice not be discouraged by a overly limited idea about what meditation is, even though Doc Checkmate has several times expressed a preference not to interrogate the definition of meditation. For me meditation is whatever helps me connect with insight in a way which sets me up to be of service to my ultimate intention in the rest of my life. Spiritual housekeeping.

I thought that my philosophy and worldview were not so relevant, from my reading of the topic post, hence only gesturing in passing to "rightbrain" (verifiable to an extent, & useful as a shorthand for the creative mind, from scientific sources interfacing with therapeutic processes, e.g. art therapy) & other beings (verifiable, & I'd be hard pressed to find someone for whom other beings & our ecology are not part of consensus reality, to lean on definitions of science).
 
 
Doc Checkmate
20:19 / 06.08.06
SN: I would be happy to end the conflict over our posts right here if you are. I've voiced my concerns in a straightforward way and apologized for the unnecessary venom in my earlier expression of them. You've elaborated on the motivation and underlying ideas of your post. I feel like we're good. Are we good? Because I'd hate for this thread to degenerate into an extended bicker between the two of us when it could still turn into a useful resource for meditation info.

Personally, I'd be totally interested in more details about your practice, if you felt like discussing them.
 
 
Rex Feral
11:11 / 07.08.06
How interesting/useful are people finding this thread? Me and Doc C were wondering if it was a little too technical for people - I'm fascinated with the mechanics of Thedevara Buddhist practice but others may not be.

Anyone got any thoughts? Where would people like to see the discussion go? For those of you who do meditate, I'd be interested in hearing your experiences. For those of who you don't, questions welcome.
 
 
Unconditional Love
14:25 / 07.08.06
I would like to be reading about techniques and the results they produce, preferably something that produces quite astounding results each time, for example hyatts undoing yourself techniques, certain forms of chi gung, martial arts, dancing, LBRP etc etc. Something that is practical that i can take away and perform.
 
 
M_a_r_k
16:41 / 07.08.06
In reply to Giant Haystacks, I'm finding it very interesting. The more technical the better, I would say!

I've recently started a regular, simple meditation routine (focusing on breathing while in the lotus position) and I've found that 'warming up' with some stretching exercises prior to meditation is very helpful in settling the mind.
 
 
Rex Feral
16:56 / 07.08.06
I find that as well actually. Some mild exercise, stretching, swinging etc. before beginning also has a good effect for me.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
17:03 / 07.08.06
It's been a good thread for me so far...

Incidentally, I came across this article t'other week. From the author's introduction:

it is the object of this discussion to disprove the view that meditation is the central focus of Buddhism and to show that it is not, as often misconstrued, a catalyst for a nonrational and insightful immediate experience of some higher "truth." In fact, it will be demonstrated that meditation is highly ritualized and dependent on, and informed by doctrinal, discursive concepts. As a result, the epistemological validity of mystical experience will be called into doubt, or at the very least, redefined and qualified, but only after a summarized analysis of the historical factors and conditions that led to a misunderstanding of the meditative experience in the first place.

I found it interesting, as I've been reflecting on the doctrinal underpinnings of some of the meditation practices I've been doing over the past decade or so, and wondering if I still concurr with the basic premises of those doctrines (in particular, Patanjali's dualist ontology as expressed in the Yoga Sutras).
 
 
Quantum - killed by hadrons
(prev. Quantum)
17:05 / 07.08.06
What does meditation provide that rest does not?
 
 
Ev
18:05 / 07.08.06
Attention, whether it's single-pointed and focused or objectless.
 
 
Ev
18:11 / 07.08.06
Sorry, just realized that instead of asking "what does mediation INVOLVE that rest does not" you probably are asking "what does meditation DO FOR YOU that rest does not."

In my opinion, it creates a distinct kind of calm focus that rest alone does not.

Let me think on that a bit more.
 
 
Quantum - killed by hadrons
(prev. Quantum)
19:44 / 07.08.06
My point is that some people get similar benefits from walking, playing chess, daydreaming, masturbating vigorously etc.
Obviously meditation does have benefits chess does not, but I'm interested to see what they are. What does meditation do for you?
 
 
Ev
21:01 / 07.08.06
My point is that some people get similar benefits from walking, playing chess, daydreaming, masturbating vigorously etc.

For better or worse, I've done all of the above and the effects of meditation seem to be distinctly different. However, the effects aren't easily articulated in words.

When I've meditated on a regular basis (whether zazen or yoga), the ongoing, chaotic mental chatter in my mind gradually has slowed down and dropped away, to be replaced by mild euphoria and an extremely calm, sharp state of attentiveness.

What does meditation do for you?

For a start, and on a practical level, it dramatically relieves stress. (When done as part of hatha yoga, it also makes me notably healthier, stronger, and more flexible.)

It also seems to develop a kind of mental strength which I’ve found allows me to react to the circumstances around me with a certain degree of perspective and non-attachment. (Example: a screaming baby at the table next to mine at lunch. If I haven't been meditating, I might grit my teeth, mutter under my breath, and be extremely agitated for the rest of the meal and for hours afterwards. If I've been meditating, I might simply smile and shrug it off.)

On rare occasions, mediation can lead to bursts where I'll feel euphoric and "full of light," or like I'm pure mind, or like I'm interconnected with all things. That tends to be a real learning experience that makes me deeply ponder the nature of consciousness and my relationship to the world around me.

I'm not sure that walking, chess, or masturbation do that in quite the same way.
 
 
Unconditional Love
14:25 / 08.08.06
I forget the chan practitioners name but he makes a good comment about the sutras being little more than toilet paper and carvered wooden buddahs firewood, its something i like to muse on in relation to all written material and idols.

The idea of the transitory and impermenant is to be lived not studied or sat and waited for. mindfulness should be in every action, including thought and especially masterbation.

It could be argued that there is no difference between meditation and any other action performed in a mindful way.
 
 
Unconditional Love
15:18 / 08.08.06
While searching for the aforementioned chan/zen practitioners names i came across this, which explains the importance of sensory phenomena in the zen/chan school.

16 bodhisattvas enter the bath

I especially like the notion that buddah is a shit stick.
 
 
Ev
16:13 / 08.08.06
I forget the chan practitioners name but he makes a good comment about the sutras being little more than toilet paper and carvered wooden buddahs firewood

I think that at a certain level of progress one may not need written scholarship or formal guidance. But I also think that at other levels -- especially at the start -- written scholarship or formal guidance can be immensely helpful. It's common for people with a certain macho frame of mind to confuse these two levels.

It could be argued that there is no difference between meditation and any other action performed in a mindful way.

I'd contend, and I expect plenty of people would agree, that any action performed in a mindful way IS meditation. But how often do people REALLY perform most of their daily actions (brushing your teeth, walking to work, writing a memo, going to the bathroom) in a mindful way?

Seems to me that setting aside time in one's day for a formal session of meditation -- of whatever flavor -- allows one to ensure that he or she is really, really, trying to be mindful.
 
  

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