Lula:
Ganesh, this thread really isn't for you. There is one for you to comment on this one in if you need to. Can't you post in that instead?
I've twice acknowledged in-thread that the thread's not for me, and apologised for posting in it (at the time, it seemed to make more sense than cut 'n' pasting to elsewhere, but I take the point). I've butted out now, and am going to transpose our conversation here, so you can move my offending posts for deletion if you so desire.
Lula:
I have a big issue with Kovacs under the guise of Miss Wonderstarr, specifically here in the Gives me a Happy thread, commenting on how hir 'did his nails' whilst waiting for the puppy to not die.
I freely acknowledge that Kovac's name change made me feel uncomfortable from the beginning, but I was unsure as to why. In the thread about it people suggested that they didn't have a problem with the experiment if he was open and honest about it. This hasn't happened. Posters not in the know are already referring to Kovacs as 'she' and they have not been corrected. I think somewhere someone suggested that people should not deliberately be misled, and they are being.
Quite why this matters to me I don't know, maybe 'I'm doing my nails' is all part of Kovac's experiment but personally I feel affronted. What it feels like to me is a male poster in the guise of a female making comments which he deems 'fit' the female suit because they're frippery and 'that's what females do'.
I've asked Kovacs about this in the thread already but I think I've probably made things difficult in doing so. By saying no, Kovacs will be agreeing that he is stereotyping women. It's likely he may claim this is the point of his experiment.
I absolutely admit to have been waiting like a tiger ready to pounce on the Miss Wonderstarr suit, but I really don't think it's helping the site, or female or male posters. It doesn't appears to be a useful thing for anyone other than Kovacs who appears to be getting his jollies out of it by not correcting anyone presuming him to be female, and by pretending what women mainly do is paint their nails.
Me:
I think the issue of whether or not a given poster's online identity is "helping the site" is rather a bizarre, abstruse criterion for deciding whether or not to tiger-pounce on that poster. Ditto "useful". If someone chooses to present as a particular gender, they ought to be addressed as such. I think speculation as to "jollies" is rather unnecessary, and somewhat disrespectful.
Personally speaking, I have to say I'm finding myself reacting differently to Miss Wonderstarr than I did to the previous incarnation. I'm not sure why, but I'm finding this a more pleasant person to interact with. So... for me, it is "useful", "helpful", etc. to think of her as "she".
Incidentally, where did she pretend "what women mainly do is paint their nails"? I make reference elsewhere to being unhappy with my oversized gut but I'm not 'pretending what men mainly do is express unhappiness with their oversized guts'. Has Wonderstarr's personal inexplicably become generalised, in your mind, to the political? Why?
Me:
Without wishing to take up too much space here (perhaps we need a new thread devoted to 'online gender' or somesuch?) I think that, if this thread's aiming to be "woman-friendly", that means being friendly to all women.
Mordant:
And absolutely none of the above could have possibly gone in the male response thread... why?
Me:
Ask Lula. I'd say "because Wonderstarr is not male".
Mordant:
Fine by me, but I wasn't under the impression that wonderstarr waspresenting as female, more sort of feminised. If ze's actually presenting as female then sure, that's more complex.
Me:
I don't really understand the distinctions. The 'Miss Wonderstarr' suit is, as far as I'm aware, female ("she" rather than "ze"). 'Ganesh' isn't, however, so I'll butt out now and continue in another thread.
Mordant:
First off, I have to say that I experienced pretty much the same reaction as Lula to the 'doing my nails' reference. I interpreted it as a male poster satirising what he saw as feminine behavior, and my scratchy button was well and truly pressed. Having calmed down a bit and exchanged a few PMs with the poster in question, I've been moved to re-think that response.
I have in the past seen male posters, here and elsewhere, don a female suit for the express purpose of attacking what they saw as female weaknesses and negative traits. The resulting grotesque never passes for long, being composed largely of misogynistic fantasy, but during its brief lifecycle it can do a lot of damage. I think that's what made me feel uncomfortable.
As I said to miss wonderstar: I think the important point was that I didn't grasp the femaleness of the wonderstarr suit and was kind of thinking of it as kovacs in mascara, which I now realise was an error. That's what upped the scratchiness of the nails thing for me--I was reading it as a comment by a male-identified poster in a feminised suit, which gives it a different flavour.
There were also a few things I didn't know about this poster's backstory, for instance that ze is keen on personal grooming ect., which again puts things in a rather different light.
Me:
Another of those innocent-until-proven-guilty benefit-of-the-doubt moments?
Apologies. Gone now.
Mordant:
So what, it's not okay to flag or challenge something at the scratchiness level? We have to wait for outright offence?
(Answered Mordant's point via PM so as to avoid causing upset by further invasion of women-only space.)
Lula:
Kovacs, I only only got your PM this morning and I posted here last night.
I apologise for not considering that your post was seriously about doing your nails, to me it read as a male poster who has decided to post as female making a comment that 'sounded' female.
That's how I read it but I see now that you may not have meant it as that. I was unaware of your online life choices at the time of reading or posting.
I think I do still have a problem with posters identifying as female if they are not when they are directly referred to by gender. I don't know why. It just feels like lying I think. Is that wrong?
Ganesh, this thread really isn't for you. There is one for you to comment on this one in if you need to. Can't you post in that instead?
I don't really understand the "if they are not when they are directly referred to as gender" part. Can you explain that to me a little further, Lula (in either thread)? Also, without wanting to put words in her mouth, I suspect Wonderstarr would prefer not to be addressed as "Kovacs" now... |
I can't really think of anything better, sorry. Trying to inorganically 'equalize' things is just going to accentuate existing problems, I think, and maybe make people (id est, male posters) bitter.)