BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Thinking of joining an occult group

 
  

Page: (1)23

 
 
--
19:01 / 18.07.04
Over the past six months or so now I've been involved in an online correspondance with two magicians who planned on moving into my area (that is, Rhode Island) and were looking for various interesting local magicians with whom to associate with. They managed to find me via my blog and we quickly got into an on-line friendship, our tastes and viewpoints being somewhat similiar. Sometime in June they finally moved to RI and, on July 25th, will be holding a gathering of sorts in Providence, the first gathering taking place at a gay cafe of sorts (or, to be more exact, a cafe frequented by mostly a homosexual crowd). Recently I inquired to this individual what kind of group he wanted to establish. He told me that he and his girlfried were members of the O.T.O. and had been so for 15 years, and they were trying to charter a branch of the O.T.O. in Rhode Island (he also told me he was a member of the Freemasons and the Temple of Set). It's not so much a secret society (I mean, they have a yahoo group and a Live Journal page), but he told me that primarily it would focus on the psychological aspects of magic, the books of Robert Anton Wilson being a good example.

So, it appears that I've been invited to join this occult organization. As a magician who has been practicing solo for about 2 and a half years now, this, on one hand, would be what could be called an "interesting new experience" for me. It would expose me to new people, get me out of the house, give me something of a social life, and of course there is the benefit of associating with other magicians, which of course would make me feel less isolated or crazy (not to mention the glamor of being involved in such a group). Also I miss being involved in an organization of sorts... When I was in college I was one of the lead officers of the campus' gay-straight alliance, and that was a very fun, rewarding experience.

On the other hand, however, there are negatives to consider. For example, the notion that I'd be joining a magical group for the "wrong" reasons (that is, seeing it more of as a social thing rather then as a magical thing, though of course this is a matter of opinion). Or that I'd be further lowering myself into a world of qabalistic goo, group-supported insanity and paranoia, and basic isolation from the "real world" (which is what my non magician online friends think will happen... Then again I'm already isolated as it is so I can't see how this would be more isolating). And there's always the possibility that these people are completely nuts and are just looking for suckers, though that's not the vibe I'm getting, and I'm usually a good judge of character.

I dunno, the pros seem to outnumber the cons here. The universe seems to be pointing me in this direction too: Recently I began reading RAW's "Masks of the Illuminati" (which I got recently for my birthday) and to my surprise there was a character, very bookish, shy, virginal (should I add he was 24 years old, like me?) who had an intellectual interest in the occult and things of that nature. Through his writings he attracts the attention of the Golden Dawn, who he eventually joins... On July 23. Also, last week I went to Toronto on vacation planning on relaxing and not thinking about anything occult for a few days when I saw, spraypainted on a wall on a building near the hotel I was staying at, the word "Horus" (the eye of Horus is one of the symbols of this group, naturally). Then, as I was leaving the city a few days later, I saw the same grafitti spraypainted on yet another wall. These are just some of the synchronicities I've been observing as of recent.

After some thought on this subject I've decided that I'll go to the first gathering and judge the people on a face to face basis. If they seem like a good group of people then I'll join, and if not I won't, as this is a decision that only I can make (though I do welcome the opinions of others). At the very least this will force me to learn how to get to Providence (as I can't have my bloody parents drive me to a secret society meeting) which will be useful as there are certain clubs there I've been planning to frequent in my recent attempts to incorporate glam eurotrash popstardivasex "not-self" material into my old boring identity which must be shed like a snake (whew! There's a mouthful). Thoughts/opinions would be appreciated, if you will.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
20:23 / 18.07.04
I’d say go for it. Go to their gathering and suss them out. It’s only the OTO. If they’re a bunch of twats who you don’t want to hang about with, give it a miss. If you get on, give it a try and see if it’s for you. The social aspect is of huge importance in getting involved with a group. You wouldn’t want to play in a band with people you didn’t like, would you? Same thing applies.

Good to hear that you’re thinking about getting out and going to clubs, and making a start on the Sypha self-image overhaul. You know it’s the right thing to do.

Incidentally, I quite like the idea of getting ones parents to drive you to a secret society meeting. If I didn’t live 300 miles away from my parents I might think about getting them to do that for a laugh. Would be funny.
 
 
Rex Feral
11:11 / 19.07.04
Why not go for it? You could end up involved in a variety of dysfunctional powerplays that shatter your confidence and self esteem, forced into abusive relationships under the pretext of learning, laughed at and spat upon in the name of ritual, finally tempted by highly dangerous and toxic narcotics to ease the pain of deep humiliation, adding addiction to your already heavy bag of woes. You could get to watch as your spiritual quest and aspirations get dragged through the mud and slime of petty human egotism and spite, your deepest desires and hopes misused as a foil for sordid dramas, giving you deep existential doubt as to why you were every born, let alone aspired to change yourself. Years of torment, self hatred, mania, physical and mental pain might follow, spiralling out of control into a nightmarish miasma, culminating in a early suicide leaving your friends (if you have any, by that point which is doubtful) and family to weep over your sad, pathetic, deluded corpse, wondering how they’d ever birthed such a total loser. Go for it!
 
 
trouser the trouserian
14:04 / 19.07.04
and on the other hand you might just get laid ... or just meet some cool people.
 
 
LykeX
14:10 / 19.07.04
Illimatic, if you, or someone you know, have had a bad experience with an occult group, maybe you could give some advice on what to look out for, danger signs and such. It would help more than just being negative.
 
 
Chiropteran
14:39 / 19.07.04
Sypha: I've been reading your posts for a while now, and IIRC, this is the first one I've seen where you've expressed that "the pros seem to outnumber the cons." Good go.

And I'm glad to hear that you're getting out to the clubs, something you only just recently said you couldn't see yourself doing.

As for the OTO, it sounds like you have the right attitude about it. The important thing is just to make it to that first meeting, and then go from there. If you do find yourself slipping into an unhealthy level of involvement with the group, then take some of your new-found confidence and do something else for a while (something non-occult, preferably). Be careful without being paranoid, and you'll be alright.

Glad to see things are rolling. Good luck, and have fun!

~L
 
 
paw
15:51 / 19.07.04
good luck and look after yourself.
 
 
--
17:57 / 19.07.04
I'm pretty sure that Illmatic is just being sarcastic, as I've talked to him in private about this topic before and he seemed very positive towards the idea of group magic.

And I haven't started going to clubs yet, but that's the next step. The only club I've ever been to is a place called Club Hell and that was in 2002, but it was just to see a spoken word performed by a drag queen writer. That will probably be the first place I frequent as it seems to attract a goth/industrial crowd and there are various nights that interest me (ie. retro 80's night, fetish night, etcetera). Also the Merovingian from the Matrix films owned a Club Hel and he's one of the templates I'm currently planning to incorporate into my (ahem) personality structure. Or some bullshit like that.
 
 
Daemon est Deus Inversus
04:15 / 14.03.06
I'm the praemonstratror of HOGD at www.golden-dawn.com. I'm also the lawyer handling our litigation against a group called HOGD, Inc.

I don't get one cent out of this: just teach a lot of classes; tutor a lot of people; and do a hell of a lot of paperwork.

Anyway, visit the Library at our web-site at www,golden-dawn.com. Read or download whatever you want- Solomonic texts, etc- anonymosuly without cost rather than buying it at a bookstore; read our articles; then- there are more than a couple of thousand people there- still anonymously and without cost (you can use whatever Yahoo! ID you want)-join our Yahoo! group Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn. Participate if you want. Ask questions.

Then, if you still want to join HOGD, it's $100 to join; $50 a year thereafter. It basically just covers costs. All of us are volunteers. For that, you get a tutor; write a report every two weeks; receive a lot of postive and negative feedback (mostly the latter); and do a lot of elemental, planetary and zodiacal rituals preparatory to an alchemical course in the Inner (which is, obviously, by invitation). Your physixal initiation in 0=0 and through the elemental grades (1=10 through 4=7) is arranged at one of our Temples.
 
 
DRR... DRR... DRR...
10:41 / 14.03.06
DEDI, dude: It's usually considered bad form to hawk your wares on the board on so brief an aquaintance. (Especially if you also post rape jokes to threads on feminism.) I'm going to leave your post intact because the site appears to be offering free stuff, but I'd like you to run along and read the wiki page on posting etiquette.
 
 
Sekhmet
15:33 / 14.03.06
Not to mention that you're replying to a thread that's two years old.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
16:11 / 14.03.06
It's good to see that fine old occult traditions - arguing over legitimacy and acrimonious litigation - are still being kept alive...
 
 
rising and revolving
16:29 / 14.03.06
Oh god, it's Jorge.

Can I make a quick suggestion to everyone and anyone who cares? Don't join any order (but most especially not a G.D. order) that's suing anyone.

Being sued, maybe. I still wouldn't recommend it. But at least that implies that it wasn't their fault, ultimately. Organisations that pursue lineage (or legitimacy) via litigation are a bad idea.

Gah.

This is the entire reason I get embarassed when talking about my G.D. work here. Which is a drag, because it's great and fulfilling work.

It's just a shame that there are two cults out there using the G.D. name and perpetually duelling it out in public (and the courts) which makes us all look bad. Lawsuits don't settle questions of magical lineage, whatever the OTO might tell you.

I was just listening to the Phil Hine interview (and having read Prime Chaos relatively recently) and he stressed that the groups need to get along socially or they're never going to get along magically. So, in answer to the original question, go with that. Find a bunch of people who roll with the ooky that you like, and go for it. You don't need lineage. You need juice. And you'll find juice with your likeminded magicians who you can tolerate being in the room with. Whose company inspires you. Whose perspective enlightens you - in the literal sense, shining light in the corners you've otherwise left bare.

If that's not what your order promises and provides, get out of it.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
16:39 / 14.03.06
Very well put, Rising. I couldn't agree more.

"Experience and good company are the two clear eyes of the seeker."
Kulanarva Tantra
 
 
Unconditional Love
16:42 / 14.03.06
I advise you avoid them at all costs, ime, they are full of nice people who are very friendly, want to help you and are very intelligent as well. Its very intimidating when all you want to do is reinforce your ego, read books about it and not really change one opinion at all.

So yeah, avoid at all costs?
 
 
Ev
18:59 / 14.03.06
Hmm.

I'm a U.S. IP lawyer and I'm fascinated to see this litigation. I've read the complaint and answer/counterclaims, the agreement between the parties, and a couple of declarations.

My personal opinion (not offered as legal advice, of course)?

Fuck 'em both. No magical group should own any trademark registrations for any GOLDEN DAWN marks. Neither side is the original Golden Dawn or a clear successor, and the term GOLDEN DAWN has essentially become a generic (and hence unprotectable) term for an organization teaching a certain flavor of the Western Esoteric Tradition.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
19:23 / 14.03.06
Many years ago, at a conference, I ran into a lawyer who'd been pursuing a copyright case for the OTO (can't recall the specifics unfortunately) - but prior to that, he'd been on the Microsoft payroll. We joked about conspiracy theorists having a field day with the idea of a possible relationship between the two orgs - 'specially given that both were headed by guys called Bill at the time.
 
 
Daemon est Deus Inversus
19:41 / 14.03.06
If you're taling about the guy who won the O.T.O. v. Motta case, his name is Stuart MacKenzie. Incidentally, he has no personal interest in magic.
 
 
Daemon est Deus Inversus
19:46 / 14.03.06
N.B.: There are some good articles on the web by Bill Heidrich.
 
 
Daemon est Deus Inversus
20:33 / 14.03.06
I would like to address a couple of points. Eh, more than a couple of points. Yes, I did hawk. I also read the posting guidelines. I violated them, apart from the fact that I don't get a penny out of what I do at HOGD (unless you count the Chief taking me out to dinner when I win a motion), because we do offer a lot of free stuff (sign up under a totally ficticious Yahoo personna and check us out), and it gives people a chance to really explore a group before even telling us who you are. That, I thought was the crux of the thread. As to the 'rape' joke on Feminism 101: 1) I'd just finished a long pro-choice but realistic post on Roe v. Wade on another on another thread; 2) a large part of my personal and magickal life outside of HOGD is Goddess oriented so that I found the freshman designator '101' offensive; 3) Tongue in cheek, I posted part of an old Navy drinking son. And, yes, we are a nice group of people who ask a lot in personal magickal work
 
 
Ganesh
21:09 / 14.03.06
As to the 'rape' joke on Feminism 101: 1) I'd just finished a long pro-choice but realistic post on Roe v. Wade on another on another thread; 2) a large part of my personal and magickal life outside of HOGD is Goddess oriented so that I found the freshman designator '101' offensive; 3) Tongue in cheek, I posted part of an old Navy drinking song.

None of which is a) apparent to those reading your jocular contribution, or b) reason to post what you posted where you posted. Just don't.
 
 
DRR... DRR... DRR...
21:36 / 14.03.06
I would like to address a couple of points. Eh, more than a couple of points. Yes, I did hawk. I also read the posting guidelines. I violated them, apart from the fact that I don't get a penny out of what I do at HOGD

Sorry, but whether you personally are making money or not, it's still a little inappropriate. You bumped a two-year-old thread to plug a group that charges a membership fee. The free stuff is why I left your post there and didn't request a delete.

1) I'd just finished a long pro-choice but realistic post on Roe v. Wade on another on another thread;

You know what? I don't care. You don't get feminism points that can be stored up and used later to offset insensitivity.

2) a large part of my personal and magickal life outside of HOGD is Goddess oriented so that I found the freshman designator '101' offensive;

Oh, dear, I'm so sorry. It's lovely that you and your Goddess/es is/are such good pals, but maybe hanging out with a few flesh-and-blood feminists might be good for you as well.

3) Tongue in cheek, I posted part of an old Navy drinking son.

Okay, dude, you posted part of an old Navy drinking song, containing repeated references to gang-banging, to a thread on feminism and misogyny. I hate to break it to ya, but however great your posts might be elsewhere, that post makes it look as if the 101 class was a smidge advanced and that maybe you'd got lost on the way to the introductory course in "Ladies: do they have girl germs?"
 
 
Daemon est Deus Inversus
21:58 / 14.03.06
Does LBRP, BRH and kneels until elemental tide of Fire; does GIRH Venus. I'm not being sarcastic.
 
 
Daemon est Deus Inversus
22:04 / 14.03.06
Flesh and Blood???? I'm talking of actual ritual.
 
 
rising and revolving
22:24 / 14.03.06
Yeeeaaahhh.

See, there's this thing. It's just a little thing, but it's a thing nonetheless. One of those things that we talk about a lot, in this old place.

Your magic is no good unless it comes down to earth. Your magic is no good unless it changes your life. Your magic is no good unless it changes the WAY YOU DEAL WITH PEOPLE.

Which is to say, if your GIRH of Venus doesn't help you to realise

a) When it's wrong to post the rape jokes.
b) When it's right to apologise
c) When "I realised it was against policy. I just didn't care." isn't much of an excuse.

Then it's NOT FUCKING WORKING.
 
 
DRR... DRR... DRR...
22:25 / 14.03.06
Oooohhhkay. By flesh-and-blood feminsts, what I meant was actual human women, with actual human vulnerabilities, who've lived actual human lives, suffered actual human harrasment, abuse, discrimination, ect.

That hole's getting awfully deep. Maybe you should think about putting down the shovel and getting a nice tall frosty glass of OJ.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
22:32 / 14.03.06
As usual, too late.

What's with these people?
 
 
Lurid Archive
22:41 / 14.03.06
I think you people should cut Daemon some slack here. Fancying the Borg Queen opened my eyes to feminism - same thing with Dedi.
 
 
Pyewacket The Elder
22:58 / 14.03.06
Steady on folks - you're derailing this thread. Remember your semantics. Words be funny, words be angry,words be right, words be wrong, BUT THEY ARE NOT THE THING THEY DESCRIBE. I reserve the right to find an ACTION abhorent but a word whatever i chose given the appropriate context. I reserve the right to NOT be offended by a sound from someones gob or its equivelent on screen. I realise that not everyone is aware of this choice so sometimes I chose NOT to use certain words in certain company (i.e use consideration and discretion).
PLease pay special attention to what i am saying before getting the flame-wands out I will not be arguing this point further.
I think Deus has been reprimanded for 'hawking' according to Barbelith policy and let the other subject be argued in the other thread where it's relevant.

SO to bring this thread back to topic I am actually looking at doing it the other way round - I and a couple of friends are starting our own magickal group from scratch (we are all novice in different areas) in order to start positive change in our local area and outwards to infinity (AND BACK!).
How is it best to approach people who might be interested?
Who has experience of this kind?
Do you have advice?
What methods have you used for networking and working with other groups?
Do you think it is posible to infuse the occult scene with a little more solidarity a la the UK DIY Punk scene whilst avoiding use of one pervading belief system (actually whats wrong with the belief in MAGICK?).

Any advice much appreciated.

Also if there are any groups based in the south of england I'd very much like to know about you. Best PM considering whats gone before.

Peace y'all!
 
 
DRR... DRR... DRR...
23:17 / 14.03.06
I can think of some words you could choose to not find abhorrent, if you like.
 
 
Pyewacket The Elder
23:28 / 14.03.06
Are they 'Spears', 'Britney', 'Code', 'DaVinci', or 'chakras'?

Another question for you learned folks - have any of you found it worthwhile being a member of more than one group at a time? Experiences good or bad?

Cheers - PieWhackIt
 
 
Dead Megatron
23:29 / 14.03.06
Words be funny, words be angry,words be right, words be wrong, BUT THEY ARE NOT THE THING THEY DESCRIBE

I'm not sure that's entirely correct, from the magical and neuro-psychological point of view. Our language does affect our perception of the world and thus, maybe, who knows, the world itself...

I'm a part of no group, and I can't even call myself a "magician" without feeling like a poser, but I do know people who are in "occult" groups (Santo Daime, Candomblé, that kind of African-Brazilian magic - plus I know a fanatic catholic exorcist who can read your mind), and they seem a fine thing to do (join a group, that is.)
 
 
HCE
00:40 / 15.03.06
Pyewacket, if you choose to exercise what you believe is your right to make comments that others here find threatening or hostile, I for one reserve the right to attempt to persuade the community to seek your expulsion.
 
 
DRR... DRR... DRR...
00:45 / 15.03.06
I love the idea of a magician who doesn't believe that words mean anything. Bless his little heart.
 
 
HCE
01:01 / 15.03.06
And who lets us know by using ... well ... you'd have to call them words, wouldn't you.
 
  

Page: (1)23

 
  
Add Your Reply