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Do the Jews really run the world?

 
  

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raelianautopsy
03:30 / 13.05.04
Is there any validity to this claim? Let's explore this topic as objectively and as unemotionally as possible.

Now, obviously there are plenty of outright racists who believe this to be 100% true. But even still, are there at least some truths hidden in this thesis? Lets look at some facts:

-A disproportionate amount of Jewish people seem to be in high positions of the media. Michael Eisner runs Disney and ABC, Hollywood has a signifigant Jewish influence, the New York Times is run by the Sulzbergers, etc. But there is a historical reason for some of this, as lots of persecuted Jews went to California in the 1800s and founded Hollywood. As for Jewish influence of New York, that city has more Jews than anywhere else in the world so there is bound to be people in positions of power there.(Israel on a whole has a larger Jewish population, but no one city even has as large a population as just the amount of Jewish people in New York)

-Jewish people also seem to have large amounts of banking interest in the world. Of course conspiracy theorists will cite the Rothschilds and 'international bankers.' There is also a historical reason for this, since going all the way back to medievel times in Europe it was against Church law to charge interest on loans so many monarchies would indirectly do that through Jewish people that did not have to follow Church law, so it sort of evolved that way. And later on, it should be pointed out, the Knights Templar also got in on control through banking later on.

-When you look at politics, Jewish people can often be in the center of situations. Many of the early communists where Jewish, such as of course Marx but also many of the early Russian groups. In America Jewish people are 15% of Congress, which has them overrepresented by a factor of three. And obviously Israel is a major center of world events right now.

But what does this all mean. Are Jews God's chosen people? (maybe, but let me get back to that point later) Are the part of the New World Order? Are the examples above just the random way that history evolved? Well, one theory has it that Jewish people were sort of bred to be more intelligent than Europeans. My own belief is that it is far more cultural than genetic, but how it goes is that when Christianity took over Europe, the smartest and most educated Europeans would become clergy. Hence, they would be celibate and have no children. But in the Jewish portions of Europe of that time, Jewish culture had it that the most educated and intelligent people would have the MOST children, and be the most rewarded in society. So Europeans were bred stupid, culturally or genetically whichever you prefer, until the Rennaisance when they caught up with the rest of the world and took over it. But even today, especially in America, Jewish culture respects education moreso than the many parts of the rest of the culture at large. There is no malicious planning in this.

But let us now bring up the subject of conspiracy theorism. My own conclusion is that more is being done behind the scenes than we will ever know, but the closest we can get to the truth is to at least explore and take consideration in conspiracy theories.

What I have concluded is not that there is THE Jewish conspiracy, but that there is 'A' Jewish conspriracy. You see, the biggest flaw of conspiracy theorists is that when they look at the big picture, they conclude that it is all one major plan. But more likely, it is far less organized and there are different hidden groups infighting and crisscrossing. The Jewish influence on whatever 'NWO' their might be is just one influence. There is also an Arabic influence when you look at the Assasin secret societies influence on the Illuminati, there are Arabic bloodlines and CIA connections (Bin Laden AND Hussein). Obviously, WASPs have a large stake in this. Look at most of our presidents, they are old money/royalty families. But let me come back to bloodlines in a moment. When both men running for president are both Skull and Bones members, something is going on and it is bigger than any 'Jewish Conspiracy.' Besides the interlocking of different groups, there is also apperently infighting between PNAC NeoCons and the U.N., right-wing capitolists vs. left-wing communists, Zionists vs. Muslims, etc. It is much bigger and more random than only one of these groups influencing everything behind the scenes.

One the subject of bloodlines, those that control the world do appear to be the same families that have been doing so for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. Bush, who is so obviously only president because his father was, is the 17th cousin of Saddam Hussein. So Jewish people that have too much influence on the world may be so because of this reason, they are of just one bloodline that happens to be Jewish. But why is it that bloodlines seem to exert so much influence? Is it just how history happens to evolve, or is their something more? One of the more outlandish theories is that Anunnaki E.T.s are the gods of ancient religions and interbred with humanity. So could those in power be of alien extraction? Is this what is meant by God's Chosen People? We will probibly never know for sure (and this goes for both sides of this debate) but it is something we should consider and not immeadiately discount.

Now I would like to get into something as taboo as taboo gets: Holocaust revisionism. Did six million die? Whether or not they did, Zionism since then has certainly taken advantage of the Holocaust for their own political gain. There is also much evidence that Zionists worked with the Nazis to forcibly deport all Jews to Palestine but Britain would not allow it. I am in no way a Nazi sympathizer, but I would still like to explore this topic. Let us consider Holocaust revisionism for the moment. Hypothetically, let's say that the number of Jews that died was only in the hundreds of thousands, and there were no gas chambers, and most of the deaths were due to starvation from Allied bombings. The remaining historical record is still shows an extremely evil track record for the Nazi regime. The government controlled the country fascistically, invaded its neighbors for purely imperial reasons, and had a lawful policy of racial discrimination, where "only" hundreds of thousands/millions were put into concentration camps. And of course, it was not just Jewish people that were persecuted, but also the mentally ill, Gypsies, political prisoners, homosexuals, and anyone who did not listen to the regime. The stupidity of Nazi sympathizers stems from saying these people were the good guys, even when you accept the revisionism arguments, just because they were fighting the 'Jewish/Communist Conspiracy.' As I said, if there is a conspiracy it must be much bigger than that, and of course the occultic dictator Nazi party would be completely a part of it. Look also at the CIA heavy Nazi influence in the Cold War. Not to mention the Bush family's connections to Nazi Germany durring this time period.

Even still, can we at least look at World War II revisionism with an open-mind? Can the beliefs of sympathizers be compartmentalized and only look at the factual evidence of what they have dug up? My own philosophy of spiritual enlightenment is to be as open-minded as possible and to challenge everything. When someone is fanatic about hating this taboo of Holocaust denial, it can make their ideas even more enticing. But most of all we should be logical and look at what the facts are, but not emotionally condemn others. The fact that Ernst Zundel is in jail in Canada for these reasons is also a travesty of free-speach.

I don't like to play this card, but I probibly should after saying all this. I happen to have been born in Israel, and I still have dual Israeli citizenship. By ethnicity I am Jewish, but not by religion. I can tell you by experience that no one I know runs the world, I wish I could get a free ride in life if it were true. But my ethnicity should not matter, and feel free to call me a self-hating Jew, but what should matter is the objectivity of the truth. I am just trying to explore every avenue possible to get to it, and social taboos should not play into it.

I welcome any discussion.
 
 
--
04:37 / 13.05.04
I have a question... exactly what, pray tell, does this have to do with magick?
 
 
raelianautopsy
05:57 / 13.05.04
It has to do with that recent Fetch drama.

I guess this could be in the Switchboard.
 
 
hermetic archipelago
08:00 / 13.05.04
The Jewish conspiracy is: Jews like Jews.

Jewish people spread all over the world in post-classical times. Like RA said, they came to largely control banking due to Christian prohobition. More important, since it gets to the root of more than the banking conspiracy, is that Jews all over the world (in general) will help each other compete with non-Jews.

European nationalities do not tend to do this. An Englishman will compete with other Englishmen as much as he'll compete with Frenchmen. You can't go halfway across the world and find a network of friends just because you're a Christian or an agnostic. Jews were oppressed by the ruling powers for many centuries, so they learned to stick together. This turned out to their advantage.

The Arab conspiracy has a pretty much identical explanation, except it's newer and less powerful because Arabs have been an opressed people for less time. Oppression hasn't lasted long enough for Africans to form a worldwide conspiracy, and I think measures were deliberately introduced by old Americans to prevent such a thing (Michael Moore may know more than he tells on this count).

There is also a counterconspiracy (or a series of them). The Knights Templar were one manifestation, Skull and Bones is another. This conspiracy is basically white guys getting together to minimize the advantage of Jewish solidarity (and other conspiracies). There's even a counter-counterconspiracy, which I think really got off the ground with Aleister Crowley, but I'm sure one could trace ancient roots. Doing so would almost certainly be very worthwhile.

Discussing conspiracies is very magickal, because it's mythology--and mythical programming. Defining a conspiracy is like defining the Secret Chiefs: it might do you good to think of a room full of intense-looking individuals making plans; or it might do you better to think of impersonal, nonanthroposized forces. It's certainly not fruitful to expect experimentally valid facts from such a discussion. It's shaping the world through communal will, which is magickal.
 
 
hermetic archipelago
08:03 / 13.05.04
Hmm...forgot to mention that drug prohibition is creating a network of FUTANTS comparable to oppressed groups of the past. Who knows what will come of that...?
 
 
Z. deScathach
08:23 / 13.05.04
I agree with Sypha. This is a primarily political topic.....
 
 
Joetheneophyte
09:45 / 13.05.04
It is a political topic but it can remain where it is I suppose because we are also discussing whether people of Jewish extraction have a covenant with God.....are they the Chosen People?

I have often wondered this myself. As a proportion of the population, there are a hugely disproportionate number of Jews in positions of influence than chance or random factors should allow

It is all down to how you believe the Jewish people we are discussing have achieved their positions IN LIFE

undoubtedly Jewish culture and work ethic, do have a large part to play in this. jewish parents often expect more from their children than their Christian contemporaries and as such, the 'will to win' is inculcated at an early age.ALL THESE ARE GROSS OVER GENERALISATIONS, I FREELY ADMIT


I also think that as has been pointed out on here, the frequent abuse of Jews throughout history has resulted in a cultural and 'racial' closeness that is unmatched by other cultures or 'groups' (though personally, I do not subscribe to the Race theory of Judaism)

I have a theory about circumcision that I know is crackers but I cannot dispel it totally from my noggin. To me , it seems plausible that to circumcise a child at eight days old or whatever ....MUST (imo) imprint a level of distrust in the world in general. The child has no way of understanding why this is happening and in my experience, this must leave some psychological baggage (bear with me for a moment, I getting somewhere with this nutty theory)

Much like the Jesuits state 'give me the child until he is seven and I will give you the man'.....I believe that to inflict this physical and I propose, mental anguish on a small child, is in a number of circumstances, perfect conditions for Imprinting a cultural identity or at least opening the child up to a deeper level of conditioning than another child, who has not experienced such a trauma.

For example (and totally unscientific I admit) , if we accept that pre verbal memories are stored in the Unconscious and potentially affect the mind at at least a dream level, then this could be used cement and forge a cultural identity (EVEN INADVERTANTLY AND INNOCENTLY)

Again, totally unscientific and unproven but I suspect that the pain and crisis of this early Imprint EXPERIENCE might create a general feeling of anxiety in the Jewish male. In circumstances where the Religion and Culture give the child an explanation that 'justifies' this act of circumcision and the pain endured, then I suspect that many children might 'Identify' with others who have shared this pain and existential crisis and as such the bond of brotherhood is formed.

So if the Rabbi or family repeatedly re-inforce that the child is SPECIAL and 'GOD's chosen'.......this might in even a minority of cases, produce a strong link of cultural/religious identity. I believe to a lesser extent that this is also happening in the US where most male children are circumcised.Percentage wise, Religion seems to form a bigger part in the average US citizen's life when compared with a European.....and I would also propose that Nationalisim often replaces Religion as the defining Identity issue for many US citizens. Pledging allegiance to the flag is an Identity forming act that is culturally ingrained from an early age.....much like religious practices......I propose that a child with free floating anxiety from an unconscious trauma......might be more malleable to such social conditioning.

I believe that more US citizens are devoutly patriotic percentage wise, than their European counterparts.
I know that this is all totally whacko and simplistic and totally unprovable.....but I do seriously believe that circumcision ....particularly if performed without anaesthetic, might create the ideal circumstances to form an impressionable individual.....more likely to adopt the beliefs of his peers in his formative years

We are all 'formed' in the early years of life to a great deal but such a trauma MUST (in my limited opinion) make the individual more open to the societal and religio influences of one's peers.....if only to justify the unconscious anxiety that lurks at the back of the traumatised mind. TO ACCEPT MY THEORY, ONE HAS TO HAVE A BELIEF AS I DO THAT PRE-VERBAL MEMORIES CAN INFLUENCE BEHAVIOUR...........SOMETHING THAT PSYCHO ANALYSTS OFTEN DISREGARD



It is even possible (getting back to Magick) that after thousands of Circumcisions in the name of YHVH OR Yahweh (WHATEVER?) then this GODFORM is powerful enough to influence reality. This seems contra-indicated in the abuses that Jews suffered in the 1930-40'S but I am just idly theorising

as for Holocaust Revisionism.......I do think that it is sad and ultimately harmful to Jewish people everywhere that the subject of researching the Holocaust is so taboo.
Some of the Jewish groups opposed to allowing research into this area are acting in a fascistic manner .........
Whether the figure be 100,000............. 1,000,0000 or 6,000,000.....it is still disgusting what happened in WW2 but that does not mean that historical research should be barred and if evidence does come to light that reduces the oft touted figure of six million, then that does not and should not take anything away from the tragedy. To try to stop research into this area causes mistrust and ultimately is harmful to academia and freedom of speech and research
 
 
C.Elseware
12:04 / 13.05.04
All this talk of conspiracies (jewish, arab etc) reminds me, of all things, of the xanth novels by Piers Anthony. (bear with me). Quality of writing aside, there was occasionally references to the "childrens conspiracy" - the fact that kids stick together verses adults, and share jokes and secrets adults don't get. There's also the adult conspiracy, which includes knowing what sex is and the phrase "not in front of the children". And the mens conspiracy, which all males belong to automatically. And the womans conspiracy (what do they talk about in the toilet?)

Thinking like this there are many different groups which you act differently around/towards. People that you've never met before who you might give beneift of the doubt to, oft unwisely, due to something in common, a shared language.

Examples I can think of; musicians, geeks, gamers, jugglers, motorbike owners, goths and obviously religions etc.

However the obligations feel stronger towards people with something in common which is not generally accepted or understood, when you have a shared secret. Basically a fraternaty. Especially true if people can't just tell by looking.

Examples of this: drugs, bi/gay, fetishism, (gaming?), being jewish, being smart, and the point of this post; magick.

In the past the pursuit of magickal arts, other than those accepted within the current religion, has been heavily persecuted. (argh, is he about to mention the burning times...?)

So is there a conspiracy of magicians similar to that of jews, geeks, girls, whatever?

And can a mage use their understanding to gain status within such conspiracies and use it effectively to achive their ends?
 
 
A Haus of Minions
(prev. Jenna Elfman's Hollywood Haus)
12:30 / 13.05.04
As a proportion of the population, there are a hugely disproportionate number of Jews in positions of influence than chance or random factors should allow

Wait a minute....now that a think about it, there are a shitload more white people in positions of enormous power than you'd expect as an index of world population.

Every leader of a nation with inter-continental nuclear capacity - check. The heads of the G8 - check. The CEOs of the world's richest companies... that one I'll have to look up, but I could make a guess...

Guys, this Jewish conspiracy is obviously something to get onto, but it looks to me like the white goys conspiracy is a whole mess better organised and better funded. Is this suggestive that we're looking at history rather than conspiracy?
 
 
trouser the trouserian
12:49 / 13.05.04
So is there a conspiracy of magicians similar to that of jews, geeks, girls, whatever?

Well there have been several, depending on who you read. The most famous is probably the satanic-freemasonry conspiracy fraud perpetrated by Leo Taxil (who gets my vote for patron saint of conspiracy buffs) and, more recently, the 'conspiracy' of the existence of a vast network of satanist 'child-abusers' which grew up in the late 1980s. To give an example, those of us who are familiar with the various editions of Pete Carroll's "Liber Null" may recall the diagram at the beginning of the book which 'shows' how various occult movements feed into the modern-day IOT/chaos magic. That diagram was used as 'evidence' of a worldwide & historically 'true' conspiracy of satanic occultists by the Reverend Kevin Logan. Interestingly enough in the light of the present discussion, many of the wilder claims about satanic occult practices which flew around at the time of the SCA event were more or less the same accusations that had been historically levelled at Jews.

There's an archive of articles about the SCA scare here
 
 
trouser the trouserian
15:09 / 13.05.04
Raelian

You wrote:
But most of all we should be logical and look at what the facts are, but not emotionally condemn others. The fact that Ernst Zundel is in jail in Canada for these reasons is also a travesty of free-speach.

What I find problematic about individuals such as Zundel who propose an aternative perspective on the holocaust is that they appear to have a wider agenda than just looking at the 'facts' of a particular historical event.

For example, Zundel recently, has said of Canadian Presidential candidate Stockwell Day:

"I know the personal toll of standing up for what you believe in, and I was inspired by Stockwell's spirited defense of his school's Accelerated Christian Education curriculum which states that 'Buddhists and Muslims are evil' and 'Jewish leaders were children of their father, the devil.'"

Now of course, one could argue that Zundel & co. are entitled to say whatever they like about whoever they like - "free speech" and all that. However, I can't help wondering if they would accord the same degree of "rights" to others? Judging from the aims of the "Western Canada Concept" (founded by one of Zundel's mates, Doug Christie) I doubt it.

article here from the Canadian Skeptics Society examining Holocaust revisionism. Also, A Review of Denying the Holocaust by Deborah Lipstadt and a review of the Ernst Zundel case.
 
 
Harold Washington died for you
17:23 / 13.05.04
Coincidentally, I was just talking with my drug dealer about this the other day. I said the Iraq war was intented to get control of the oil and "stabilize" the region (for the USA) 20-50 years from now. He said it was because Israel called in favors in the US and UK because they really hated Saddam. I was taken aback at first. I have a blind spot in my rampant conspiracy theorizing when it comes to Israel. As a generally tolerant American man I felt "the Jews" have suffered enough and said so. It's the rich white guys who are the problem.... Oops.

An open letter to Bush, 4/3/02

The last three paragraphs are the pertinent ones. The names missing from the bottom of that letter, the names you will find on many other pages on the site, are Dick Cheney, Don Rumsfeld, and their personal gentlemen, Scooter Libby and Paul Wolfowitz.

My point? Whatever conspiracies "the Jews" are running these days are suitably inclusive, non-denominational, dare I say, Globalized affairs. As long as you have white skin and a lot of money, come to the table, friend.
 
 
cusm
18:46 / 13.05.04
Aye, Zundel is a fine example of why this topic has a hard time going anywhere. Seems most folks interested in it are also so seething with racial hatred that they simply can't behave properly in public.

I've read over arguments on revisionion myself, and I've seen some pretty good arguments that even claim to cite reports, papers, and similar investigations. Of course, there is no telling if there is any validity to their evidence, white supremecy web sites not exactly being the most trusted of media sources. But the gist of it was, if I recall, that the gas chambers could not have happened for logistical and practical reasons, that census numbers dispute the 6 million figure, and that starvation at the later stages of allied invasion was the primary cause of death. Its a plausable enough argument to merit a closer investigation of the facts, to settle the matter one way or the other. The sheer amount of benefit and influence that has been gained from playing the holocost card is reason to call the ADL on possible exageration of the facts. Where there is profit, there is motive, and where there is motive, there is room for suspicion as doubtless there was some degree of fudgery afoot. Its not like the mainstream media is the most trustworthy of information sources to begin with, is it? And that's not even getting into conspiracy theories of a Jewish bias in staff.

There's also the argument that other genocides were far worse, Stalin for example having killed several times over that many. But its the actions of the Nazi's that are named with a proper noun: The Holocost. Genocide takes place in Croatia within this decade, and the news tisks it as a shame. Yet there are endless museums dedicated to what happened in Germany. It is this level of specific reaction against this one incident that itself gives evidence of organization and influence. I suspect to some degree it is the vigor in which holocost memorial is perpetuated that causes people to suspect sinister machinations of a conspiracy to begin with. Success speaks for itself in that regard.

But on conspiracies, "The Jews" are no different from any other group seeking the same thing, such as Masons, or Hindu immigrants, or whatever. Nepotism is a force to be had, and is the core of such conspiracies.

Its really simple enough. You have your group, whatever it is, and a way to recognize other members of this group. For example, "White and Male" is a popular and wildly successful one. Should you find yourself in a position of power, you use your influence to prefer others of the group you identify with. You hire your friends, your church members, or brothers in your satanic conspiracy cult bent on world domination.

Culturally, Jewish people have a lot of recognition for their own group. The identity of "Jew" is strong, oweing to an ethnicly common religion and tendencies towards a closed society. This is especially evident in settled communities, as there is a shared language, religion, and even manner of dress (in the case of Hassidics) that is notabaly different from the society around them. This sort of seperation breeds neoptism through enhanced identity with your group. That's pretty much the beginning and the end of the conspiracy, and its no different from what everyone else does, save perhaps the Jewish people having been at it longer for having been scattered without a homeland and taken to settling in other parts of the world. Now add to this the specter of Anti-Semitism and constant reminders of The Holocost and centuries of oppression, and you have real and constant modivation to continue patterns of seperation and nepotistic business practice in an "us vs them" mentality. That much is going to happen without any need of a shadowy organizing force, its just human nature.

But if you want to talk political conspiracy, you can talk about Israel. Here you have a clear political agenda by the Evil White Guys to support an Israeli state as a base in the area against the Arab Hordes. These sorts of politics can't help but breed suspicion, and claims that perhaps it is America and Britian who are subservent to their Zionist masters. And perhaps, you can view the situation that way, as the White Empire needs Israel enough to keep giving her what she wants, so one can question who is really calling the shots. Though that's more switchboardy talk.

Occult conspiracies on the other hand, we can go on about here. Lets look at the quaballa. Why is it that Hebrew mysticism has so penetrated western occultism? It is a vastly effective system, true. But does not its popularity among Europeans in effect feed energy into the God behind it? Can not a case be made that every time you use a deck of modern tarot cards, you are invoking Hebrew energies through links between the major arcana and the Hebrew alphabet? The quaballa is universal among western occultism, yet is ultimately Jewish in origin. This must have some degree of magickal effect, which surely supports the perceived success of Jewish people. Or at the very least, if it is causing a magickal influence, could it be that those most blindly frothing of racial hatred against Jews are picking up on this influence, and knowing no other way to recognize it are stricken to paranoia and hate as their only defense against it? It poses an interesting theory, that the irrational obsession the world has with hating Jews might be a subconscious reaction to magickal support towards their success.

I think it was this sort of thing that Fetch was rallying against. His irrational fixation on seperating his work from that of "Noahists" and inventing new mystery schools was I believe in efforts to counter this and subvert the power of quaballa for English use. Indeed, the Golden Dawn's and Crowley's work on an English Quaballa were likely rooted in seperating the magick in this system from its Jewish origins, so that it may become native to its new European students and cease feeding the Hebrew God by its study. Call it New Aeon work or whatever, that this work was considered important I feel is evidence of the occult effect of Hebrew Quaballa study. And then there are the Masons, who make heavy use of Hebrew symbology in their works, and study and use of Sacred Geometry. So there you have another mystery school and conspiracy bent on world domination based on Jewish occultism, complete with practicing ritual observation. If there is anything to magick at all, this must have some occult effect.

So there's a big head full of magick conspiracy theory for y'all to play with. Have at it.
 
 
The Prince of All Lies
20:35 / 13.05.04
dude, it's Holocaust. not Holocost.

that aside, what I dislike from people playing the Holocaust card is that there have been far worse and less publicized genocides. The spanish obliteration of the south american natives in collonial times was far worse, yet history books tend to look past that. The same with the destruction of the north american tribes, but it's all right since Thanksgiving teaches us that the pilgrims and the indians were the best of friends...
 
 
Skeleton Camera
20:52 / 13.05.04
The Holocaust gets the most attention because of a: publicity and b: the mechanization of the thing. For much of the world it was revelation of industrialism's dark side, above and beyond anything WWI revealed. When a worse genocide occurs in a "third-world" location it is easier for white Western consciousness to write it off. It is usually "barbaric" and bloody, the stuff of tribal warfare. But when peoples begin to systematically murder one another in the middle of Western civilization, no one can ignore it.

And no one has.

But this has nothing to do with magick. On that note, to throw in the conspiracy bowl something new, what about the concept of hyperdimensional warfare? A long-standing, or continuing war between Jews and Arabs, or more commonly, Arabs and the Templars? Hence the frequent and repeated conflict in the Middle East - physical manifestations of a multi-dimensional battle that has continued for thousands of years. There was a post regarding this some while back... topic 1776, doncha know?
here
IIRC, these two foes - specifically, the Assassins and the Templars - are hypothesized to be battling for Judeo-Christian relics, even the Ark of the Covenant. This could explain the assimilation and proliferation of Hebrew magic (spec. Kabbalah) in Western esoterica - a tool of increasingly potent power, originally taken up by the Templars in their occult war.

(These are concepts to me, btw, and in no way being dragged out as "evidence" of any conspiracy.)
 
 
DRR... DRR... DRR...
21:16 / 13.05.04
Does anyone mind if we move this to the Switchboard? It seems to be a political, rather than a magickal or spiritual discussion, and I think it might do better in a political forum.
 
 
h3r
21:57 / 13.05.04
i second MC's request for a move of this thread
 
 
madhatter
22:12 / 13.05.04
ahem. as a german-speaking (austrian) person, i think that there are GOOD reasons to make nazi-revisionism ('alternative look' at the holocaust et cet) a crime rather than 'let the better argumentation win'.

why? -
1. as it has been said, conspiracy-theories are myths, constructions to 'better' understand or manipulate reality; powerful personalisations of a supposed 'hidden truth'.
2. myths do not fall from the sky. they evolve around and out of the material needs and interests of people. they reflect them, and they can be manipulated towards a goal.

and yes, i believe this topic would be better of in switchboard.
 
 
A Haus of Minions
(prev. Jenna Elfman's Hollywood Haus)
00:56 / 14.05.04
I've read over arguments on revisionion myself, and I've seen some pretty good arguments that even claim to cite reports, papers, and similar investigations. Of course, there is no telling if there is any validity to their evidence, white supremecy web sites not exactly being the most trusted of media sources.

You reckon? I can't shake the feeling that maybe, just maybe the white supremacists might have a vested interest in downplaying the casualty figures of the Holocaust. In fact, is it just me, or are pretty much all holocaust revisionists also right-wing nutbars? I might, although I confess that it is probably my prejudice talking, suggest further that the ranks of the White Power movement have birthed about as many world-class historians as it has really top-notch disco bands. Maybe there are some books about the subject from more reliable and knowledgeable sources - any recommendations, guys?

I occasionally wonder why some of our occultist brethren are so keen on giving the Jews a bit of a roughhousing, but then on reflection I guess that Hitler is the best example the last century has to offer of somebody obsessed with wacky conspiracy theories who not only got to move out of his mum's house but also ended up as, like, boss of Wolfram and Hart...
 
 
h3r
01:29 / 14.05.04
madhatteras a german-speaking (austrian) person, i think that there are GOOD reasons to make nazi-revisionism ('alternative look' at the holocaust et cet) a crime

coincident has it that also I am a german-speaking austrian, but I can't really see the logic in the reason you give...could you please elaborate WHY digging in and researching history should be a crime?
I dont think that "nazi-revisionism" is synonymous with "alternative look at history".
I do not buy into the holocaust denial stuff, but as most historic situations I expect also WW2 and everything around it to be littered with disinformation and supression of evidence....
 
 
Stoatie. Stoatie? STOATIE.
02:08 / 14.05.04
Doesn't there seem to be a significant lack of Jews in the White House... you'd think if they ran the world they'd make the effort to take over control of the most powerful nation on Earth, no?
 
 
fridgemagnet
02:27 / 14.05.04
I have problems with statements like A disproportionate amount of Jewish people seem to be in high positions of the media. This is simply because I've never seen any actual figures on the ratio of "Jewish people in high positions of the media" vs "people in high positions of the media". Yes, it's possible to name plenty of people with Jewish backgrounds who have media positions... but there are thousands of people who have media influence. There's no way I could make any judgement about disproportionality without some at least some sort of attempt at worldwide statistics.

I generally tend to think that if Jews run the world they must be incredible masochists.
 
 
Stoatie. Stoatie? STOATIE.
02:50 / 14.05.04
Yeah, fridge is bang on the money. (Can we have a pie chart? I LOVE pie charts.)

Aside from anything, if you wanna get all conspiracy theory minded about the whole thing, a FAR more plausible reason why the US is so supportive of Israel is a fundamentalist Christian agenda... the Jews may be going to burn in the lake of fire, but they need to become ascendant before Christ's return... yup, stupid. Yet still somehow more plausible than a Jewish conspiracy.

EDITED TO ADD: And my flippancy isn't an attempt to derail the topic, btw. This is well worth discussing, and trying to remain unemotional on the subject is a good thing.
 
 
raelianautopsy
03:44 / 14.05.04
Of course white supremecists are totally biased when they bring up this topic. But on the same token, mainstream outlets are too scared to bring up this forbidden subject, so the fringe of the political spectrum are going to be the only ones to bring it up.

All I'm saying is that we shouldn't be afraid to ask the question.

As far as Jewish people in the white house, what about Paul Wolfowitz? Many of the PNAC NeoCons are Jewish, and their vested interest in the region is not based on fundamentalist Christianity. Also, I already went into how much WASP white people descended from Old Money/royalty bloodlines are also too powerful.


On another not, it is pleasantly surprising how civil this discussion is and no accusations of racism are being thrown around. Pehaps the Fetch fiasco was an evolutionary experience for Barbelith. I was honestly expecting to be kicked off. I'll have to try again some other time.
 
 
fridgemagnet
04:24 / 14.05.04
Well, I've asked myself the question "is there anything in this?" before, and I have to say the answer I've come up with has been "no".
 
 
Jester
10:12 / 14.05.04
I think maybe a better question is 'why are people still bringing up the fact that Jews are in positions of power/wealth?' rather than 'why are Jews in this position?'

The same people that come out with these theories saying the holocaust didn't happen/happened on a smaller scale are generally speaking the same people who go on about a 'homosexual conspiracy' et al. Which makes you wonder, doesn't it? Not to mention the absurdity of, for example, the 'jews are lizards/aliens from outer space' side of things.

Why does no-one ever say, 'why are networks of power dominated by christian?'?

I think suggesting that it was only 'a few hundred of thousands' that died isn't really reflecting reality. You just have to look at some of the source material to see this. Or go to the concentration camps that you can now visit.

Again, the problem isn't that the Holocaust has been over reported, its that other atrocities have been under reported (for example that the British 'invented' the concentration camp, genocide in Africa at the moment that basically passes without comment).

There are *some* issues to do with numbers: more people claiming to have been in camps than there were jews in europe at the time. But I don't think that leads to the conclusion that it's all made up, or that its not true that millions were killed.
 
 
Jester
10:16 / 14.05.04
Also: the argument about Jews being historically priviledged in the span of European history doesn't hold together very well. Of course it is true that *some* jews were wealthy, but it's also true that persecution is older than the nazis/stalinists. My relatives fleed Lithuania years before Lenin because of bloody pogroms, for example.

Going further back, as early as the 16th 17th century Jews were being forcibly converted and expelled from, for example, Spain, for the same reasons - they were seen as wealthy and, overridingly 'other' by the catholic majority and leadership.

Claims that Jews have somehow had an easy ride are difficult to sustain when you condsider that throughout european history they more than any other group have been historically persecuted, killed, and in other ways discriminated against because of their racial/ethnic/religious/cultural background.
 
 
Our Lady in Her Haus
(prev. Our Lady Drinks Your Milkshake)
10:45 / 14.05.04
Do the clean-shaven really run the world?

Is there any validity to this claim? Let's explore this topic as objectively and as unemotionally as possible.

Now, obviously there are plenty of outright pogonophobics who believe this to be 100% true. But even still, are there at least some truths hidden in this thesis? Lets look at some facts:

-A disproportionate amount of clean-shaven people seem to be in high positions of the media. Michael Eisner runs Disney and ABC, Rupert Murdoch owns half of everything, that guy who runs AOL... etc. But there is a historical reason for some of this, as lots of persecuted unbearded went to California in the 1800s and founded Hollywood. As for unbearded influence of New York, that city has more unbearded than anywhere else in the world so there is bound to be people in positions of power there.

-When you look at politics, Unbearded people can often be in the center of situations. Whilst Marx and Lenin had beards, many conspiracy theorists consider them spiritually unbearded, as they did so much for their chin-fluff free brethren. Then there's George Bush, senior and junior, Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, Colin Powell, Condelleza Rice, and in this country Tony Blair, Jack Straw, Gordon Brown, Alistair Campbell Maggie Thatcher... Charles Clarke and Alistair Darling both had to shave off their beards before they were allowed in to office. How long is David Blunkett going to be allowed to maintain his 'man who stands at bus-stop and rants about the Jews' unshaven image? And what was the first thing they did when they captured Saddam Hussein? They SHAVED him. And who is currently public enemy number one? Osama Bin (where else would you put the clippings once you've cut off the beard? He mocks the clean shaven from within his very name!) Ladin.

But what does this all mean. Are the clean-shaven God's chosen people? (maybe, but let me get back to that point later) Are the part of the New World Order? Are the examples above just the random way that history evolved? Well, one theory has it that the unbearded people were sort of bred to be more intelligent than Europeans. My own belief is that it is far more cultural than genetic, but how it goes is that when Christianity took over Europe, the smartest and most bearded Europeans would become clergy. Hence, they would be celibate and have no children. But in the unbearded portions of Europe of that time, clean-shaven culture had it that the most educated and intelligent people would have the MOST children, and be the most rewarded in society. So Europeans were bred stupid, culturally or genetically whichever you prefer, until the Rennaisance when they caught up with the rest of the world and took over it. But even today, especially in America, unbearded culture respects education moreso than the many parts of the rest of the culture at large. There is no malicious planning in this.

But let us now bring up the subject of conspiracy theorism. My own conclusion is that more is being done behind the scenes than we will ever know, but the closest we can get to the truth is to at least explore and take consideration in conspiracy theories.

What I have concluded is not that there is THE clean-shaven conspiracy, but that there is 'A' clean-shaven conspriracy. You see, the biggest flaw of conspiracy theorists is that when they look at the big picture, they conclude that it is all one major plan. But more likely, it is far less organized and there are different hidden groups infighting and crisscrossing. The clean-shaven influence on whatever 'NWO' their might be is just one influence. Obviously, WASPs have a large stake in this. Look at most of our presidents, they are old money/royalty families. But let me come back to bloodlines in a moment. When both men running for president are both Skull and Bones members, something is going on and it is bigger than any 'non-bearded Conspiracy.' Besides the interlocking of different groups, there is also apperently infighting between PNAC Neobeards and the U.N., right-wing capitolists vs. left-wing communists, Zionists vs. Muslims, etc. It is much bigger and more random than only one of these groups influencing everything behind the scenes.

One the subject of bloodlines, those that control the world do appear to be the same families that have been doing so for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. Bush, who is so obviously only president because his father was, is the 17th cousin of Saddam Hussein. So clean-shaven people that have too much influence on the world may be so because of this reason, they are of just one bloodline that happens to be clean-shaven. But why is it that bloodlines seem to exert so much influence? Is it just how history happens to evolve, or is their something more? One of the more outlandish theories is that Anunnaki E.T.s are the gods of ancient religions and interbred with humanity. So could those in power be of alien extraction? Is this what is meant by God's Chosen People? We will probibly never know for sure (and this goes for both sides of this debate) but it is something we should consider and not immeadiately discount.

I don't like to play this card, but I probibly should after saying all this. My father has a beard, and in my younger days I briefly dabbled in their hairy-chinned culture, though when I realised the distress this caused people close to me I immediately went cold-turker and can say, hand on heart, that I have not attempted to grow a beard for some nine years. I can tell you by experience that no one I know runs the world, I wish I could get a free ride in life if it were true. But my beardiness should not matter, and feel free to call me a self-hating no-beard, but what should matter is the objectivity of the truth. I am just trying to explore every avenue possible to get to it, and social taboos should not play into it.

I welcome any discussion.
 
 
A Haus of Minions
(prev. Jenna Elfman's Hollywood Haus)
11:12 / 14.05.04
Of course white supremecists are totally biased when they bring up this topic. But on the same token, mainstream outlets are too scared to bring up this forbidden subject, so the fringe of the political spectrum are going to be the only ones to bring it up.

I'm not sure this statement holds up. A *lot* of historical study has been devoted to the Third Reich in general and the Holocaust in particular, by a very large number of different people. I mean, a lot. Go to your local library - you'll find shelves of WWII history. It so happens that almost all of those histories agree that the Nazis were responsible for the deaths of large numbers of Jews, and that this killing was a matter not of expediency but of policy. What you are actually saying is that the only place you can find scholarship that supports the ideas of Holocaust revisionism (or denial, if you'd rather) is the extreme right, that is among people with an investment, emotional and political, in this being the case.

Now, it is possible that you are saying that every historian since 1945 has been somehow scared or tricked out of telling the truth about this, except for the extreme right, the white supremacist movement being the only place which combines both fearless inquiry and the high-level historiographical skills required to interpret the evidence correctly. But that would be a very odd conclusion indeed...
 
 
Rex Feral
11:21 / 14.05.04
They were seen as wealthy and, overridingly 'other' by the catholic majority and leadership.

Spot on, I think. With the caevats that I really know nothing about European History, and I'm generalising hugely, I think one can trace anti-semitism back to the religous conflicts between the Jewish peoples and the ruling Catholic power structures of the time. After all, "the jews killed Jesus". (If someone who actually has a grounding in these matters wishez to correct me, dive in). I see the "jews run the world" as nothing more than the ghost of these old conflicts, and would say that they reflect the need of power structures to have a minority group to scapegoat and direct haterd against. Give 'em someone to hate. You can clearly see this if you look at any Nazi pre-WW2 propoganda. This is something that still goes on to this day, most noticeably in the UK recently with asylum seekers. In the years preceding this we've had single mothers, travellers, benefits claimants and a variety of other groups. Weirdly enough, these groups always happen to be some of the least powerful in our society. Funny that, eh?

I'd add that with regards to holocaust revisionsim, can you seriously look at anything the Nazi's did or wrote, and say they didn't WISH to kill the jews? Possibly the
numbers are inaccurate. Possibly the Israeli state has used these figures to to it's adavantage in some circumstances. But anybody who can't see genocidial intentions, blind hate and deep irrationality in Nazi actions and propaganda has blinkers on the size of Mt Rushmore.
 
 
Nick's Experimental Wrongness
12:34 / 14.05.04
Who are "The Jews"? Some kind of many-headed organism with one mind? This is a more than moderately poor question.

There are Jews who own and run large companies, and there are Jews below the poverty line. There are Jews everyone pays attention to because they're smart, educated, and attractive, and Jews no one listens to because they're shocking obtuse. There is no monolithic political or even social entity to be looked at as "The Jews". Jews are as susceptible to factionalisation as anyone else. That the Jewish identity is more strongly articulated than many others does not mean that it is unified. It may mean the reverse. The question "what does it mean to be Jewish?" is one which gets asked a great deal.

When I was at school, there was a godawful row about this. Two kids were yelling at one another - Kid A was Orthodox, Kid B was Reform. So Kid B calls Kid A a "yock", which if I recall is a slang term for a very observant Jew. Kid A retaliates by calling Kid B a "goy", which is slang for a non-Jew. Kaboom. Suddenly there are parents involved and great wailing and gnashing of teeth - because what Kid A had done was like going nuclear. And the parents were pretty much the same...

So the next time you feel inclined to think of Jews as if they were a jellyfish colony, ask yourself: who killed Yitzhak Rabin, and why?

Ask a better question, such as "is there, amongst the various elites exercising disproportionate and self-interested power, a cadre of individuals who hold and act on beliefs predicated on a notion of cultural identity which they see as primarily Jewish or associated with the state of Israel and the notion of a Jewish homeland? And if so, is such a group in the ascendant?"

The answer, incidentally, is that there are any number of people out there waving their schwanzes around trying to run the world, and they trip over each other a lot.
 
 
Rex Feral
13:03 / 14.05.04
To follow TA's point someone posted a link to a particulary fine essay recently, viewing the Israel/Palestine conflict from the perspective of class struggle. Amongst many other things this essay pointed out that Israel's Jewish population has many internal conflicts - based on many, many factors including class, skin colour, country of origin etc. Some of the worse off of these various (Jewish) factions ended up experiencing the "shit end of the stick" as experienced by other immigrant groups in other countries, ie. widespread discrimation, "ghetto" low quality housing stock, this in turn lead to widescale rioting and subsequent internment without trial. I just point it out to break up the conception of "the Jew's" as a monolithic entity.

Anyone remember the link - it was from a Brighton based Marxist-left mag called something like "Auferhbn".
 
 
Jester
13:03 / 14.05.04
I think one can trace anti-semitism back to the religous conflicts between the Jewish peoples and the ruling Catholic power structures of the time.

Absolutely (with a caveat of my own - I haven't studied this since A levels). At that time religious persecution was rife, and often targeted Jews. And, of course, Islam was a big target in Spain, where Granada was once arabic. Although protestants and catholics were also obviously the target of religious persecution too, depending on what country you're talking about.

Although I haven't studied pre-early modern european history much, I have the impression that this is a much longer tradition, going back much further.
 
 
Our Lady in Her Haus
(prev. Our Lady Drinks Your Milkshake)
14:01 / 14.05.04
raelianautopsy Of course white supremecists are totally biased when they bring up this topic. But on the same token, mainstream outlets are too scared to bring up this forbidden subject, so the fringe of the political spectrum are going to be the only ones to bring it up.

But then you might as well say "You know, it's a shame that it's only anti-Semitic/rascist websites affiliated to White Pride/KKK/BNP sites that are willing to bring up the idea of whether Adolf Hitler was a top bloke or not. Makes it really difficult to have a sensible discussion about it you know?"
 
 
Tom Coates
16:03 / 14.05.04
I am fucking scandalised by this thread. I'm deeply offended by even the very statement that we should 'objectively' or 'unemotionally' consider whether or not there's a "Jewish Conspiracy", just as I would be if we were asked to 'objectively' or 'unemotionally' consider whether rape was a bad thing, whether women should know their place or whether or not gay people should be imprisoned for being deviants.

I'm also scandalised that you're prepared to even mention seriously the idea that millions of Jews weren't killed in the Holocaust - that you would so readily say that it doesn't really change anything - the Nazi's were still bad people. It matters a fuck of a lot and it's not just some figure that we can use in various ways to support our arguments. There isn't a Jewish family in the world who didn't lose a member of their close or extended family during the Holocaust. There are many Jewish people on this board. You think it's reasonable to say to them that they should consider rationally whether or not it matters (for arguments sake) if it even happened at all in the first place!?

I swear to god, I will not allow this site to become a platform for any kind of Holocaust revisionism, discussion of Jewish conspiracies or general anti-semitism and hate speech. I'm afraid I hold some truths to be self-evident - that irresponsible people lying about some issues is almost infinitely destructive and terrible and that if you're prepared to make threads like this you should be bloody aware that you're playing into the hands of the far-right groups who would cheerfully make the world a nice Aryan playground and wouldn't care that much about who had to die in the process.

I've had several private messages from Jewish people who no longer feel that they can be on the board any more because of the current atmosphere - and frankly I don't blame them. I feel almost ashamed to look my Jewish friends in the eye around this stuff and you should feel that way too. Fucking stop this bullshit now.
 
  

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