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DC Universe Surgery

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14:41 / 02.04.07

"Realism" is a slippery subject, when you are dealing with a universe that has documented evidence of aliens, gods, and demons.

There are at least three things to consider:

1) A good story requires that suspension of disbelief be minimized. Most readers will be willing to accept a certain amount of unreality if it's at least internally consistent.

2) "Realism" doesn't have to be cynical or depressing. I'd much rather read a comic about a happily married couple who run a detective agency (of sorts), than one that involves rape and murder. Both are equally realistic, even if the husband CAN stretch.

3) Reality is boring. That's why we read comics.

16:32 / 02.04.07

i think some of this has been fairly well looked at in The Authority and made for interesting reading, but not enough to sustain a series for 40 years, which is what it comes down to i suppose.

MattShepherd: LARGELY ABSENT!

17:45 / 02.04.07

There was a decent column by Erik Larsen a while ago about how Marvel could only sustain their image as the "realistic" company (compared to DC back in the old days) by being wholly unrealistic.

It's an interesting thing to think about: generating a more recognisably "realistic" world for readers actually requires more "unrealism."

20:27 / 02.04.07

Earth-1: Superman trounces the Parasite, and all is good. Earth-Prime: a small group of dedicated people can (hopefully) change the world.

But that's okay. As many people have stated, a comic about, for instance, letter writing campaigns and demonstrations doesn't make for a particularly entertaining funny book.

Dennis O'Neil, Neal Adams and two dudes in green, 1970.

20:49 / 02.04.07

I've seen that panel over and over over the years, but I've never actually read the exploits of the hard-travelling heroes.

Does it hold up as the comic with a conscience that history has declared it?

Secret Bat-Fairies
(prev. Smith & Papers)

20:53 / 02.04.07

I remember reading it a few years ago. Sonar seemed to feature heavily for some reason, despite being a tragic case of underdeveloped villainy. The series more had moments of this clarity rather than something overwhelming...

Secret Bat-Fairies
(prev. Smith & Papers)

00:08 / 03.04.07

So, just curious in light of this "Helmet of Fate" broo-ha-ha, but has anyone ever referred to the fact that J'onn J'onzz briefly wore the helmet in the first Giff/D-Matt Justice League annual, when everybody was being possessed by something not unlike the Sublime aerosol cellular colony thingee?

Actually, has anyone ever referred to J'onn having said Sublime prototype in his own body (keeping it prisoner) ever since?

21:24 / 04.04.07

Can someone please explain the difference between Vixen and Animal Man's powers?

Buddy is an old favorite, and I've been enjoying Vixen's appearances in the JLU animated series. Both are fun, cool, and underused characters with almost identical abilities. Is the difference merely in how they access their animal aptitudes? And, um, who'd win in a fight?

21:44 / 04.04.07

That's tricky, because both AM & V's powers have changed over time:

Animal Man
----------

Initially, any animal within range, no transformation.
Later, any animal in the morphogenetic field/Red. Occasional transformations.
Occasionally, he can also talk to animals or read their thoughts.
Recently, his range improved, so he can tap into alien animals as well.

Vixen
-----
Originally, she gained powers similar to Buddy's second set, but needed the Tantu totem. Now, her powers are basically the same as Buddy's, although she lacks his control and range.

She also has claws.

23:44 / 04.04.07

I've seen that panel over and over over the years, but I've never actually read the exploits of the hard-travelling heroes.

Does it hold up as the comic with a conscience that history has declared it?

So long as you restrict yourself to reading about the comic rather than actually reading the comic itself, it holds up just fine. Otherwise, well...

I say let it retain its (conferred) status in your mind as groundbreaking social commentary and a Great Leap Forward for the relevance of the medium, and save yourself the price of the trade paperback to boot.

05:44 / 05.04.07

But but but... man! The relevance!

Actually, I will say that reading that story in a TPB did make me understand why people were excited by Neal Adams and his frames.

14:16 / 05.04.07

Okay, new topic. The missus asked me this last night and I genuinely did not have an answer:

Can Superman see the Invisible Man?

14:34 / 05.04.07

Can Superman see the Invisible Man?

He can use his super-ventriloquism to make the Invisible Man "talk," and then use his super-vision to make out the rebounded soundwaves, and see him that way.

MattShepherd: LARGELY ABSENT!

15:04 / 05.04.07

Plus he still has infrared and X-ray vision, right?

15:05 / 05.04.07

That depends on the form of invisiblity. Given that Superman can see into the infrared spectrum (as well as UV and X-ray) if the invisibility is only to visible light, then said Man is easily spotted.

If it's all the EM spectrum, it becomes trickier, unless Supes is allowed to use his Birthright-era "aura-vision", which is not EM in nature.

Either way, he can still hear and smell him.

15:18 / 05.04.07

Jack - is this something to do with that joke about superman swooping down onto wonderwoman?

15:23 / 05.04.07

See, I wasn't sure if Superman's vision extended into the infrared. When/where was this established?

MattShepherd: LARGELY ABSENT!

15:40 / 05.04.07

I believe Birthright confirmed that he has access to the whole electromagnetic spectrum, even including broadcast frequencies.

17:44 / 05.04.07

Ah. So post-Crisis, then, and can be safely ignored.

If Superman couldn't see infrared in 1966, then Superman can't see infrared. Thanks, all.

MattShepherd: LARGELY ABSENT!

17:48 / 05.04.07

Asking "Could Superman see the Invisible Man in 1966?" might have saved a bit of time there, Jack.

17:57 / 05.04.07

Boo fucking hoo. What, did you have a hot date? Don't make me laugh, fanboy.

MattShepherd: LARGELY ABSENT!

18:05 / 05.04.07

Given that you're apparently having discussions with "the missus" about whether or not Superman (Hint: 1966 Pre-Crisis Superman, mind, not some other Superman) can see the Invisible Man, I think I can live with that scathing rejoinder.

On the subject of Supes, though -- has it been firmly established that the "1,000,000 Superman" is current DC Kal-El and that we can safely expect him to live, well, forever? And doesn't that kill some of the drama?

18:17 / 05.04.07

well, it's not like we *really* thought Supes would actually die at some point, did we? (although in Alan Moore's 'final story', isn't he de-powered via gold kryptonite to enjoy a normal life with Lois, but his super-child turns coal into diamonds or some such...?)

18:25 / 05.04.07

No, because the point of Hypertime was that Superman can live in the sun in the 853rd century, but also die maybe thirty years from now in the post-Kingdom Come "Gog" one-shot. The future is not yet written, as Phantom Stranger-types would say.

Also no because the drama is not killed by knowing Superman will live. By and large, the prime conflict in Superman stories oughtn't be "Will Superman survive?" (if his three-plus comic books are still being published next month, probably so) but rather "Will Superman save the day?" (or, "Will everybody ELSE survive?") As Superman is more focused on helping others than self-preservation, this is the more satisfying conflict, and it doesn't require you to tone down Superman's powers because waah, he's just too strong and can't be killed.

18:32 / 05.04.07

Wait. Were you asking about Ralph Ellison's Invisible Man?

I have a better question: Would Superman want to see "Hollow Man"?

Here's another: Who would win in a fight: Kevin Bacon's Hollow Man, or Chevy Chase's Invisble Man (the one who wrote the memoir), or Batman?

Secret Bat-Fairies
(prev. Smith & Papers)

19:13 / 05.04.07

There's also the question of, will Superman die and then be reborn, or will the Superman in the sun turn out to be a clone, or, or, or...

And I like the idea of self-preservation not being the meaningful conflict and tension; it's something to be reflected in the comics more and is a reason to disparage lazy writing.

19:34 / 05.04.07

Here's another: Who would win in a fight: Kevin Bacon's Hollow Man, or Chevy Chase's Invisble Man (the one who wrote the memoir), or Batman?

Not forgetting Darian Fawkes.

Well, ok, mostly everyone's forgotten him. But still.

22:14 / 05.04.07

Which makes for the better "final Superman story", Alan Moore's (from Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?, (wherein Superman intentionally exposes himself to Gold K, thereby removing his powers permanently), or Grant Morrison's DC 1,000,000 (wherein we find out that Supes lives forever and is the sire to a whole family of Supers).

Each story represents the sort of final chapter that Moore alludes to in his pitch for Twilight of the Superheroes. In the TotS intro, he refers to Dark Knight Returns as being the best capstone to a hero's story (acknowledging that Bruce Wayne didn't stop being Batman, but suggests an end, as opposed to the ever-unfolding, and potentially eternal monthly stories being published in comics).

So which is more satisfying? Which makes more sense? Which did you just plain enjoy more?

I think that, in a totally tempocentrist way, DC 1,000,000 is better because it doesn't (yet, if ever) have to measure up to the test of time. WHTTMOT has the drawback of taking place in, like, 1997, IIRC. Well, here we are in 2007 and we have yet to see the insect-like cars, or the floofy-sleeved shirts, or odd looking coffee pots that decorated Moore's story. The diversion between Moore's envisioned 1997 and the actual 1997 highlights the fictionality of his story, whereas we haven't yet seen what the world will look like 1,000,000 months from now, so that yardstick isn't available for DC 1,000,000.

Plus, despite being a "final chapter" kind of story, Grant's opens up a whole lot of opportunity for fun as we proceed to the end.

22:28 / 05.04.07

Moore was playing with sci-fi elements that have become invisible through their ubiquity. The very idea that they could be in any way dissonant is a new one on me. Add to that the fact that he was clearly attempting and *obviously referencing* classic silver age storytelling - storytelling rooted in a very particular 50's sci-fi aethestic that has been reproduced absolutey everywhere as shorthand for "the future" - and I'm left scratching my head at your criticism, Murph.

For the record I don't imagine the yooniverse circa one bazillion to look anything like Graung Morrison's, and that might have something to do with the obvious fictionality of Graung's own, rather in your face, reference points.

Of course, I love DC 1000,000

Dcdnt Dytrppr n Lv
(prev. Decadent Daytripper in Love)

22:52 / 05.04.07

I'm gonna go with Morrison's, just because I hate hate hate the notion of de-powering to live a normal life. A real life. As if his life as Superman is somehow unreal. In that case, the fast shouldn't run, the strong should never lift things, the talkers should shut the hell up. And we'd all live real. More real than this.

It's like giving up the microwave oven or running water, modern medicine and your right arm... to make your life more real.

Triplets
(prev. I AM THE DARK! I AM THE NIGHT!)

02:06 / 06.04.07

Some people do do that, though, Daytripper. This person, for instance.

Then there's deliberate amputees and so on.

But I do agree with you in spirit and I could never see Clark-El, in my mind, giving up his birthright. The fact that he's a top dude with a cheeky wink (without listening to the Kaiser Chiefs, say) makes him hoo-man the most.

Triplets
(prev. I AM THE DARK! I AM THE NIGHT!)

02:07 / 06.04.07

Perhaps it was some kind of memewarfare by Moore?

09:48 / 06.04.07

Doesn't he feel a certain amount of responsibility to represent Krypton as it's last son?

10:19 / 06.04.07

Yeah but isn't the whole de-powering him thing part of the fake-out to make everyone think he's dead? If the kryptonite chamber really de-powered him he would have died in the snow. Right?

Wristwatch Nuke
(prev. Evil Scientist)

11:19 / 06.04.07

That was my interpretation certainly. Supe's still has his powers but has simply retired and taken on a new secret identity. He'll be training up his son to use his powers responsibly and in the meantime...

Crooks found tied up in front of police station, no idea what happened.

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