BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


The Passion: Is Mel Bonkers?

 
  

Page: 123(4)5

 
 
Ganesh
03:08 / 10.04.04
Yeah, you brought the matter to be seen under the scope of cultural relativism and cultural subjectivity, in which works of art are not judged but merely analyzed, filed, and everyone's entitled to an opinion, even when talking about stuff they have no understanding or authority on.

... all of which seems, rather, to be another way of suggesting that those whose viewing of The Passion differed from your own are wrong - because, presumably, they lack sufficient "understanding or authority" to formulate a valid opinion.

But Deva answered this one rather better than I could.

Because, Ganesh, the argument you just wet-dreamed about here comes from a narrower perspective than its healthy twin's: The perspective of a millennia-old set of correlations between symbol and meaning, all based on the premise of Truth, which I'm afraid cannot be completely understood by a relativist's mind.

Aaaand I'm afraid you lack sufficient understanding or authority, Jade, to comment on the stickiness of my bedsheets. You're ejaculating assumptions and value judgments thick and fast, though, from the 'healthiness' or otherwise of individual ideas to my inability to properly percieve the impressively-capitalised (and therefore, one assumes, objective) "Truth" from which your own opinion - and, bottom line, it is an opinion - springs.

But hey, you're not the only one to have recently decried my woeful, mean-spirited failure to appreciate a far greater Truth: just yesterday, one of my patients expressed lofty disdain at my inability to see that the British Government has replaced the sun with a giant artifical sphere from which it fires narrow-beam military lasers at immigrants' gonads in order to stop them breeding. He didn't actually denounce me as a filthy 'relativist', but there y'go.

Or a 'sheep'. Seems we're a hop and a skip away from that well-worn path...

The perspective you crudely sketched here is based on someone worried about and concerned with the social consequences and significances of extreme graphic physical violence in movies. And of course, the occurrence of pornography.

"Worried about", "concerned with"? Nahh, more "interested in" and "expressing an opinion on" this particular movie. As are you.

Jade, if all subsequent discussion is going to fall into the same Why Your Opinion On The Passion Is Invalid/Unhealthy/Wank, then there seems little point in continuing. Having been foolish enough to pay good money for Mel Gibson to bludgeon me for the best part of two hours with his 'Truth', I'm getting just a li-i-ittle tired of repeating the experience with you. I don't have a great deal more to add; neither, I suspect, do you.
 
 
deja_vroom
04:17 / 10.04.04
I'm getting just a li-i-ittle tired of repeating the experience with you.

Fine.
 
 
deja_vroom
08:26 / 11.04.04
...Buut " if all subsequent discussion is going to fall into the same Why Your Opinion On The Passion Is Invalid/Unhealthy/Wank, then there seems little point in continuing." seems to be just another way of saying "stop saying that my point of view is stupid or I'll quit", which is just ridiculous and a privilege I'm not inclined to give, since proving your point of view to be inadequate constitutes a great part of *my* argument (being this a confrontation and not a mere comparison of ideas), and since we are grown-ups who happen to know that, within the vast range of different opinions out there, some just happen to be wank, naive or dishonest wank, I'd suggest you stop crying and raise your game and also stop pretending to be offended by my tone. Your precious opinion *is* wank and if you wanna quit, feel free to do so.

Sorry, but this is so ludicrous I could not resist.
 
 
m
10:53 / 11.04.04
I like to call movies such as the The Passion, "killing puppies" movies. Here's how you make one:
1. Ya get yourself some cute and/or extremely sympathetic main character, like a puppy.
2. You torture the puppy for a couple of hours, and the audience feels real bad.
3. You kill the puppy and the audience cries.
"Killing puppies" movies are real easy to make and they always work 'cause everyone feels bad for hurt puppies. Lars Von Triers loves to make "killing puppies" movies, too. Bjork's played the puppy, so has Emily Watson. Plot? Ya don't need it. Character development? Ya don't need it. Music? Lots of strings. Artful direction? All you need is slow motion. Killing puppies works better in slow motion.
Really, Mel Gibson has simply joined a long tradition of filmmakers who seem to think that it's somehow hard to make people sympathize with an innocent person being tortured over a long period of time. You could've nailed fuckin' Elmo from Sesame Street to the cross and The Passion would have worked just the same.
 
 
Ganesh
13:36 / 11.04.04
Jade, as far as I'm concerned, what we're doing here is precisely a comparison of ideas - or, rather, a comparison of opinions. I expressed my own, and you've essentially spent the last couple of pages telling me, in a variety of different (but enterprisingly arrogant) ways, that my opinion is invalid. I disagree - and the fact that the film did not 'recharge my hope-batteries' rather refutes your own overblown assertions that one "cannot not feel proud", "cannot not feel the joy" and "cannot not celebrate". I didn't feel proud, I didn't feel joyous, I didn't celebrate.

That's it. I genuinely didn't feel these things. We have a difference of opinion. You, however, seem to have rather more than I do invested in "proving" that I cannot legitimately have experienced The Passion in the way I did. That's fine by me: my opinion's not nearly as "precious" as yours and, as a filthy relativist, my viewpoint isn't especially contingent on trashing anyone else's. You can even call your opinion "Truth" (with a nice, shiny capital 'T') if it makes you happy. Don't imagine that you've "proved" anything, though, other than how petulantly overbearing you can be, when faced with honest disagreement.

So... not "offended", not "crying", not "quitting". Just bored with repeating myself within what is essentially a circular loop of 'no, you're a big poohead because I say you are'.

Knock yourself out.
 
 
Ganesh
13:42 / 11.04.04
You could've nailed fuckin' Elmo from Sesame Street to the cross and The Passion would have worked just the same.

Well, quite. Or even the Easter Bunny.
 
 
deja_vroom
23:07 / 11.04.04
And, matthew, I'm sorry you're the last to know it, but you're an idiot.
 
 
m
23:08 / 11.04.04
Yowch. It's come down to name calling has it?
 
 
deja_vroom
23:31 / 11.04.04
Believe me, I tried to think of something else to say, but this issue seemed pressing.
 
 
Ganesh
23:47 / 11.04.04
Yowch. It's come down to name calling has it?

Came to that a while back. That's what happens when one views The Passion and reaches conclusions different from Jade's. You idiot.

Clearly, you need to raise your game.
 
 
deja_vroom
00:00 / 12.04.04
It's over, it's over. Nothing to see here, kids. Go read this thread
 
 
m
00:51 / 12.04.04
Here's the message I took from the Passion, in the form of a Kurt Vonnegut quote: "Before you kill somebody, make absolutely sure he isn't well connected."
Gee, I feel more hopeful already!
 
 
Our Lady Drinks Your Milkshake
10:57 / 12.04.04
Someone should tell those Evangelicals not to be handing out leaflets outside screenings of 'The Passion', the people are either going to be committed Christians already or unlikely to have been swayed one way or the other.

Being a godless atheist myself and someone who hasn't seen the film but has read the Bible, I just think it's a shame that Mel Gibson has, for reasons that I presume are to do with being a Catholic and therefore part of the Christian world that most closely models itself on the death cult, decided that the most important lesson that people can take from the life of Christ was his leaving of it. As I understand it the film starts right after Jesus has actually done* any of the revolutionary acts that put him at odds with the establishment, so I'm dubious about whether any of the theological messages of Christianity, love thy neighbour, be excellent to one another come through or whether it ends up just being about the amount of pain and suffering Jesus can take.

And Jade, please stop calling people idiots just because they dare to have differing opinions to you. It's not a very Christian attitude. Or maybe it is...

(* working on the assumption that any of this actually happened of course)
 
 
The Natural Way
12:51 / 12.04.04
Please Jade, try and understand this very. simple. point.

You're watching a film. You feel uplifted, moved even. You ascribe it to good film-making.

You're watching the Passion. You feel uplifted, moved even. You ascribe it to the heavenly realm and the power of truth.

Why? Because it's about Jesus? It is possible for something to be about Jesus, make you feel good and have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH OBJECTIVE TRUTH.

Have you seen Braveheart, Jade? The Patriot? These are not films made by some holy man. They're made by a man whose view of the world involves a great deal of fear, mistrust, an enormous amount of excitement at the prospect of violence and a view of history straight out of Hollywood. Why's he suddenly all about THE TRUTH now? Because he's just made a film about Jesus? World without end......

And stop bloody well calling people "pharisees" and "idiots".
 
 
ibis the being
17:06 / 12.04.04
I still haven't seen The Passion but my father just did. His opinions about the movie were the same before and after he actually saw it. It was moving, amazing, exactly followed the gospels, and (this is a nearly direct quote), if you're not moved by this movie, you're quite simply not really a Christian.

My dad doesn't watch many movies and has been to a movie theater a handful of times. He lives in a rural area and the theaters there are tiny. For this he was in the Big City, in a 16-theater Multiplex with stadium seating. That alone clearly would affect how he was impacted by the film. He said the screen filled his field of vision and the sound system was incredible. He cried a few times, sometimes just from the look in a character's eye - "you knew just how they were feeling."

Dad, that is not divine inspiration, it's good acting, and a really huge movie screen. He insisted to me that Hollywood "didn't touch" this movie. Because Mel Gibson is... yeah... The fact that Mel got the gospels "exactly right" is supposed to point to its eternal truth, when really you're saying the guy closely adapted a written text. Miraculous!

I've read quite a bit of the Bible, and I don't remember there being a part that said, One day a prophet will come and show a magical moving picture to the world, and ye, all men who do not believe will not have eternal life, and they will gnash their teeth and perish. I'm sorry, I get really heated about the Passion hype. Now I probably won't ever watch it, bc no I don't need to see a movie of which the level of my appreciation is going to determine whether or not I'm really saved or a Christian. I refuse to suspend my critical facilities just to avoid being damned to hell!
 
 
Our Lady Drinks Your Milkshake
17:12 / 12.04.04
Did you ask your Dad how it followed the Gospels exactly if Satan was there? How it could follow the Bible if Satan was portrayed as a woman?
 
 
Ganesh
17:34 / 12.04.04
And do we owe our table-centric dining experience to Jesus?
 
 
ibis the being
18:26 / 12.04.04
Well, see that's exactly the problem. Any such logical questions or observations about the Passion as a film (rather than a divinely inspired evangelical work) elicit just one answer: You've missed the point and you don't have the Spirit. As we've already seen happen in this thread. I won't discuss the movie with my dad at all.
 
 
Ganesh
18:26 / 12.04.04
To be honest, Flowers, I think Satan's portrayed more as an androgyne. It's a female actor, sure, and there's the Madonna & Mini-Me thing, but apparently a reedy male voice was dubbed in for the Garden of Gethsemane opener, making the portrayal more gender-ambiguous.

The fact that Mel got the gospels "exactly right"

This is pretty much my main concern about the film, Ibis: it'll be accepted uncritically by many as a near-exact depiction of How It Really Was. I had a similar, slightly tense exchange recently with the standard-issue Office Christian (a pleasant enough Nigerian gentleman), on the third day of my new job:

OC: It is a very good film.

Me (mindful of antagonising colleagues I've only just met): I certainly thought it was beautifully shot...

OC: You liked it?

Me: (cautiously) I... guess I thought the whipping and stuff went on a little long.

OC: But that is how it happened.

Me: It's certainly one interpretation of the Gospels...

OC: No, it's not an interpretation. That is what happened.

Me: Well... I guess it depends what one believes when one enters the cinema.

OC: It is a good film, because it shows how Our Lord suffered.

Me (realising this isn't likely to go anywhere nice): I'm, uh, glad you liked it. Now! Paperwork!

In fact, Gibson's lifted quite a bit from the writings of Anne Catherine Emmerich an 18th/19th "mystic, stigmatist, visionary and prophet" - as well as applying liberal daubings of artistic license (the table-making scene, Jesus's "I make everything anew" to Mary during the Second Fall, on the way to Golgotha).
 
 
Rev. Orr
04:31 / 14.04.04
if you're not moved by this movie, you're quite simply not really a Christian.

With all due respect to posters' parental units (who, presumably have no right to reply) this is exactly the attitude to this film that pumps me so full of self-righteous indignation, bile, and sheer, hard-core, fire-and-brimstone fucking fury. This is not a 'Christian' film; this is the mission-statement of a particularly extreme and wacky sub-sect of the Catholic faith. Yeah, I may well be slightly too far into the 'fluffy bunny, be excellent to one another' school of Protestant, low-church Christianity, but there was precious little in this film that represented my faith.

That's fine. I didn't make it and a so-called auteur has no responsibility to any vision other than his/her own. But, to justify the film on this level is to insist that it is judged on artistic terms as you would any other film. As soon as it is no longer presented as an individual creative act and held up as a 'Christian' film, as a religious action or a representative, doctrinal or worse, instructional text then its obsessions, innacuracies, hatred and fucked-up ideologies have to be opposed. I suppose I left the cinema with a similar response to Deva's: where was the love? Where was the teaching, the redemption, the humanity and the divine compassion? All I was left with after two hours of relentless ketchup and the blank stare of Mel's meat-puppet Jesus was a feeling of empty exhaustion. There are many reasons why Christmas remains popular as a secular festival and Easter is stuck as a Bank Holiday/DIY opportunity, but the fact remains that it's trickier and more disturbing, particulary if you're not in the club as it were.

Celebrating the tortured death of an individual is a particularly twisted thing to do and requires justification. My personal understanding of the Easter message is irrelevant in this thread, but the sacrifice is only one critical element, theologically, of a wider story. To focus on the pain, suffering and death, without giving, at the very least, equal weighting to the mystery of divine incarnation, the earthly ministry, the resurrection and the resultant impact on humanity after all of this, is perverse in the extreme. To be sure, after the blood, sweat and tears are done, Mel's Jesus cleans up nicely, but we're presented with precious little explanation for why the hell he went through with it all.

In the end, for me, the film fails upon any scrutiny of its internal structure and support. It is impossible to read it as anything other than a celebration of violence without relying on information from without the work. Not only that, but in order to read the film as the creator claims he intended, the viewer has to carefully prune such sources to those that have been approved. Many other versions of the story of Christ's life (or the end of it) have been idiosyncratic or possessed of a singular view-point, but I cannot think of any that have so singularly failed to support their own purported agenda. If Gibson's intent is a plain, unslanted, 'historical' (and my extreme discomfort at that term can wait for another thread) account of events he believes transpired - and all we are missing is the 'based on a true story' caption at the beginning - then why all the alterations and deviations from the written sources? Why increase the punishment inflicted to Christ's body? Why ignore His actions earlier in Jerusalem so that the authorities' antipathy seems all the more prejudicial? Why flash-back to the cringe-worthy Spielbergian early-years rather than any of the canonical stories? Why not include any of the teachings of His years on the road or make them unintelligible when pictured? What's the Devil doing in this film?

The only answer I can come up with is that Gibson's faith is truly an empty vessel of hate. Jesus rising to his feet to take more punishment from the soldiers has far more in common with Rocky raising his battered face to take one last shot at Apollo Creed, than turning the other cheek in pacifistic love. To leech guilt away from the occupying Roman authorities because not to do so could be read as an attack on contempoary America (whether conscious or more-likely not) is to deny vital tenets of the teaching supposedly central to the story. The divine example we are asked to follow in this version of the Passion is to 'take it like a (Son-of-)Man'; that hollow, bloody machismo and pointless suffering are both the result of the machinations of the forces of darkness and, literally, a path to redemption. That these forces are personified both as a tempting, androgenous figure of pure evil, and as a conniving cabal of Jewish caricatures operating behind the scenes is deeply disturbing. However, what shook me most, was the way that someone had taken a story that, to me, is a deeply-personal tale of sublime, almost incomprehensible love and shrunk it to a squalid romp through violence and blinkered, impotent hate. All sound and fury, it signified nothing.
 
 
deja_vroom
04:36 / 14.04.04
mmm... gorgonzola...
 
 
Ganesh
11:09 / 14.04.04
Mmm... raising one's game...
 
 
Ganesh
11:14 / 14.04.04
Jesus rising to his feet to take more punishment from the soldiers has far more in common with Rocky raising his battered face to take one last shot at Apollo Creed, than turning the other cheek in pacifistic love.

I knew that part reminded me of something - and was vaguely thinking along Fight Club lines (the redemptive power of choosing to be beaten to a pulp) - but I suspect Rocky is nearer the mark. For me, it's certainly more rooted in contemporary Hollywood machismo/masochism than anything else.
 
 
deja_vroom
14:14 / 14.04.04
No longer interested, I'm afraid. But I still want to mock you, whenever possible.
 
 
Who Is Grumpy-Pants, Anyway?
(prev. Who Invited Grumpy-Pants?)
14:18 / 14.04.04
Modhat Biz sez: Jade, take it to the PMs. If you have nothing else to contribute please refrain from trying to rot the thread.
 
 
Boboss
14:19 / 14.04.04
mmm... gorgonzola...

Orr has just written a lengthy post describing an alternative Christian perspective and all you can do is take the piss? Are we to assume that you believe Orr's post to be entirely without merit - on a par with a fucking thread on cheese. Are we to assume that all criticism of your postition is so utterly devoid of worth, so puerile and vacuous that trolling is the only reasonable response?

Could you be any more offensive?
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
14:24 / 14.04.04
Wow, this thread is tasty...Can we cross reference to reactions to The Green Mile, to really get the 'game' raised to Danny from Withnail And I heights?

Jade?
 
 
deja_vroom
14:31 / 14.04.04
Ganesh' pussyfooting ruined it for me, I'm afraid. Not interested in "contribute" if this is what's being built. But please, ignore me. Eventually I'll quit being morbid and stop coming back to watch... this.
 
 
Boboss
15:08 / 14.04.04
Ganesh' pussyfooting ruined it for me, I'm afraid.

What does this mean? That Ganesh failed to engage with your arguments? Er, I beg to differ, but if that's how you feel perhaps you should take the time the lay out your position clearly and concisely. With which points specifically did Ganesh fail to engage?

As for

Not interested in "contribute" if this is what's being built

What exactly is being built around here? I would contend that Ganesh's position is one of many. Does Deva hold the same opinions? Does Jack Fear? Does Orr? Do I?
Assuming, however, that we are working toward one unified reading of The Passion, do you only post in threads where the majority share your stance?
 
 
deja_vroom
15:13 / 14.04.04
And, if this is the type of argument I should bother considering, I'm better off with brie...

---
Where was the teaching, Explicitly, when Christ TEACHES his disciples to love their enemies; Implicitly, well, all over the fucking movie: stopping the stoning as teaching of temperance, stopping Peter as teaching of forgiveness(with moral line - "those who live by the sword" etc- to boot, no less, I don't need to go on, do I?? the redemption Check the last scene where Jesus, healed, raises from the fucking dead; also, points of interest, the Devil's fury, and when Christ says "Consumatum est", the humanity I saw aplenty in the scenes with Maria. and the divine compassion? I can't think of any scene with more DIVINITY - as in, way above mortal possibilities, and COMPASSION than when Jesus HEALS THE EAR OF AN ENEMY.

Hello-o?? Watching Hellboy, got sleepy and confused there, maybe, were we?
 
 
Boboss
15:35 / 14.04.04
So then, Jade, you're interested in hearing exactly which teachings weren't covered to Orr's satisfaction, and in what way the teachings depicted contributed to Orr's negative reading of the film?
 
 
ibis the being
16:19 / 14.04.04
Orr, great post. I'm tempted to quote the whole thing in an email to my parents, bc I get so tongue-tied with frustration over this movie.

One of the things that mystifies me about Protestants (s.a. my father) being all gung-ho about the film is that Protestants typically place the resurrection, rather than the crucifixtion, as the central message of the gospel. As a kid I was told that this distinction is why Prot's display the empty cross rather than the crucifix w/ suffering Jesus - I realize that leaves out the Iconoclasts, but you see the point.

Not to put too fine a point on this, most (Protestant) Christians claim that we are supposed to focus on redemption and forgiveness represented by Christ's having risen, instead of morbidly and self-centeredly obsessing on the guilt of His suffering for us. And yet Protestant Christians are just as fanatical about The Passion, and using it as a gold standard of Christian spirituality, despite this hugely significant doctrinal deviation. That right there smacks of knee-jerk religious fanaticism - this willingness, and even eagerness, to overlook a difference really in the whole point of the story merely to force religion on the heathens.
 
 
grant
17:09 / 14.04.04
It might be more useful if, instead of the porn hot-button word, people talked about this movie in terms of spectacle, of which porn is the usual case-in-point.

Spectacle is that which elicits visceral reactions, and it's the important component of film which has nothing to do with narrative elements like plot or character. It's organized by feats -- that is, physically shocking things which you don't ordinarily witness. In porn, it's sex acts... the wilder and kinkier, the more spectacular. In professional wrestling, it's brutal moves. And in Hollywood action films, it's either shiny flashy explosions or else muscular men using their bodies and doing things to other people's bodies.

The theorists (can't remember their names) say that to some degree, all films are spectacular -- they operate at a preconscious as well as conscious level, they elicit deep reactions, and they consist of, at their most basic level, well, pretty flashing lights in a darkened room. Film is always about seeing things you're not ordinarily seeing or in ways you don't ordinarily see them.

Now, what I think Gibson has pretty clearly done (even just judging from the visceral reactions he's getting in this discussion) is to link the ancient tradition of the Passion Play with Hollywood's conventions of film-as-spectacle. I think it's totally fair to link his work as the director of Braveheart, where the hero is gutted alive but still as the wherewithal to holler "Freedom!" in the final act, with his work documenting an event that is, on at least one very important level, a similar act of torture and resistance.

I mean, even in history, part of the deal with Passion Plays was that they were spectacles -- they were bloody, they were rowdy, they were shocking.

What I think I'm seeing here is different levels and kinds of response to that sense of shock.

Does that make things any better?
 
 
deja_vroom
17:25 / 14.04.04
It is undoubtedly higher. More elegant, too. Feta, anyone?
 
 
E. Randy Dupre
17:57 / 14.04.04
Second mod hat moment: Jade, stop trying to rot the thread because it contains arguments contrary to your own. I suggest you either engage with the continuing discussion in an intelligent manner or come back to it when you're capable of doing so.
 
  

Page: 123(4)5

 
  
Add Your Reply