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Magic Ethics

07:33 / 10.08.01

So,

Where do you all draw the line on magic? Do you draw a line?

What I am thinking here is, would you use magic to obtain things normally obtained by other skills?

Would you use magic to find a lover? To snag a specific lover? Would you use magic to obtain a promotion? What about gambling, would you use magic to win at the tables? Would you use magic to win at sports?

Is there an ethical problem with magic being used in this manner? What if you were the subject of the love spell? Would you be aware of its magical origin; would you be able to defend yourself?

-Jesse

Mordant Carnival

07:59 / 10.08.01

Ultimately it all comes down to individual ethics, just like anything else. It's between you and your concience where the line gets drawn. I don't see anything wrong with using magick to start a new relationship (or even for a one night stand if that's what floats yer boat), but I do think a person should consider the consequences of their actions for the other party. Are they happy by themselves, orin their current relationship? Do you get to come bursting in and throw their lives out of whack?

Personally I feel that a magickal love spell works on the caster as much as on the subject, by ironing out a few personality flaws and making them more understanding and considerate towards the subject. Ye Gods but you talked a lot of shite, woman. --2007 Mordant

As for sports: Hell, it's not like we're popping steroids here. Maybe the sigil helps you train harder, or improves your all important confidence- what's wrong with that?

As for obtaing a promotion: Why not? So long as you can actually do the job, what's wrong with getting the promotion? And if you can't do the job, you'll be the one who suffers ultimately as your lack of ability becomes glaringly obvious.

Like I say, it's a matter of personal morality.

10:51 / 10.08.01

Where do you all draw the line on magic? Do you draw a line?

I have yet to push myself to a point where I'll discover where my line is, but I know it can go furthur than most might find tolerable. As Modant said, it comes down to the ethics of the individual.

Magic, by it's nature, is intended to get you things you wouldn't using normal skills. Magic to find a lover, sure. Magic to get a promotion, yes. I only gamble on politics, and as much as I'd like to, my piss-poor sigils or incantations won't influence a federal election. And I use some form of
magic to win at sports all the time.

No, there isn't really an ethical problem, from my point of view. There are various theologies and morality codes that disagree with me completely, and spread stories about karma or just find themselves disgusted.

I like to think if a love spell hit me, I'd be able to defend myself. Then again, love spells aren't all they're cracked up to be.

Or so I'm told.

21:45 / 10.08.01

There's an argument to be made that just about everybody uses "Magick", in some form or another; the application of Will to the Universe in whatever form isn't always called magick... when my mom does it, I call it determination. when my dad does it, no-one notices until the effects of his actions manifest themselves. My brother willed to improve his station in life, and has overcome impossible challenges by throwing his heart and soul at them. The only constant I see between the three of them, however, is honest-to-goodness altruism; they don't notice it, but it drives all three of them. Maybe it means something, proably doesn't, but I've found it a wonderful precedent.

Blank Faced Avatar

14:22 / 11.08.01

True, true .. you do magic whether you think about it or not.. in fact, there's a concern that magic thinking just deconstructs the process too far, & is less effective than going with the flow like an innocent, who relies on well-evolved subconscious systems for dealing with the 'other'.

eg. Magical cultivation of 'Lucid dreaming' - maybe your usual dream awareness is a superbly adapted area of consciousness which deals with dreaming on many parallel levels your conscious mind just can't grasp - then how useful is it really to force your mind into a waking mode when in dreams? You're not always being cleverest by 'understanding' things more consciously....

15:11 / 11.08.01

There's also an argument to be made that people have no will at all and this is just a big, pre-scripted, unrehearsed event. Depends on what floats your spiritual boat.

Is it unsensible to have lucid dreams? Is that just our filthy, conscious arrogance, the feverent desire to have control asserting itself? I disagree.

If we can't understand ourselves consciously, we're just going to continue along, letting whatever current push you along, merrily accepting our destiny. Maybe that is the proper thing to do. Maybe it isn't.

We're explorers. The healthy, normal lifestyle isn't what you get when you explore.

Nick's Experimental Wrongness

19:11 / 11.08.01

The ethics are the same as they would be elsewhere. People row about this a lot, but ultimately it's pretty simple for everyone. If you think about it, you know. Others may not agree, but it's rare that they'll change your mind...

18:02 / 12.08.01

On love spells, some personal experience...

Part of examining the ethics of magick has to include theory on how magick works. My own speculation is that it works by creating synchronicity (meaningful coincidence). If you will to get laid or find your perfect lover, what you're doing is trying to set yourself up to be in the right place at the right time.

Trying to get someone in particular is much more difficult ethically because of the questions Mordant asked. In this situation you have to wonder if you're taking away someone else's freewill to serve your own will. Then you have to ask if this is right or wrong, or if you even want to be with this person if the only reason they're with you is because you brainwashed them by wanking or meditating or whatever.

To deal with this I usually try to use divination and\or intuition to determine if someone is interested in me before I try fuckin' about with magick (I have tried to get people with magick who didn't like me, and it hasn't worked. Perhaps an example of trying to put too much strain on the universe as Peter J. Carrol says).
Where magick can come in useful in these circumstances is overcoming obstacles that may complicate a potential relationship. Someone who likes you may be reluctant to go out with you or sleep with you (depending on what you're going for

), but you could use magick to "convince" them otherwise. This has worked for me.

In Thelema, will is the whole of the law. Love is below will. In my own set of ethics, it's the other way around.

21:46 / 12.08.01

I strongly agree with the “we’re all using magic every day” concept. There are obvious links between studies of memetics/neuro-linguistic programming and the way many of these techniques may work. We’re constantly shaping and reshaping our memories, experiences, relationships, environment and our futures. The fact that some people use what may be understood as “magic” doesn’t change the day-to-day ethical maze - it just gives a wider array of methodologies.

The problem comes with magickal practises that are an inherent part of belief systems. For example, I would personally say that human sacrifice will never equate with ethical magic. However, as I imagine the debate is concerning more liberated forms, this is a may be an irrelevant sidetrack to the main discussion. On an aside, is it possible to have any methodology that is divorced from belief systems, bearing in mind we all operate within our own limited framework? And is it possible to have a magickal way of working that is truly separate from an external, organised belief system (shunning convention is pretty conventional these days)?

As for whether an understanding of the process has an adverse effect on results, I would answer “only if you let it.” Choosing not to examine and question for fear of “jinxing” the outcome just smacks of unhealthy superstition IMHO (and lets not be simplistic - our subconscious language of dream symbolism and association is on of the most powerful processing tools at our disposal. Understanding/exploration isn’t always a conscious exercise).

12:40 / 17.08.01

"Here come the thread killer..."

XK

18:21 / 25.04.07

I'm bumping this thread because I'm contemplating a work on behalf of someone else. In my particular situation the person is in my family and while I will ask for permisson from them before doing the work I'm still having an internal conflict about it.

Basically this person is very ill and getting worse. While the allopathic docs claim it just one of those things it is pretty obvious to the rest of us involved (with the same genetic problems and potential illness) that the vast majority of the current situation is due directly to this person not taking care of themselves. Without going into a huge amount of detail to avoid privacy issues I'll offer that everyone who knows this person agrees that they are not doing the basic work required to improve their health and are holding out for a magic pill cure.

An attitude which obviously drives me fucking batty.

So the people involved have tried more conventional means of intervening and achieved no results. With this in mind I feel with all conventional suggestions and actions being rejected by this person it maybe time to bring out the big guns (it's that or emotionally disengage which honestly I can't do).

So the big guns involve asking this person for persmission to invoke our shared Ancestors and to some extent shared Pantheon. I personally know from working with these Folks I can expect a combination of something akin to soul retrival and burning the house down to motivate someone to move. Basically it's an act of magic to ask Them to make this person be invested in their own well being and to address the internal work that needs to happen. Bootstrapping another person on this level just feels wrong to me ethically but sometimes you have to try and save the suicidal just so they see it can be done. Jump starting the wounded soul.

It might not even work at all but I feel it is the last thing on the list to try.

For the record I usually refuse to do healing or magic on behalf of anyone who can't be bothered to take action on their own with the obvious things and just want the quick fix. I will however pray for them to get motivated but I won't do their work.

XK

18:30 / 25.04.07

I'm bumping this thread because I'm contemplating a work on behalf of someone else. In my particular situation the person is in my family and while I will ask for permisson from them before doing the work I'm still having an internal conflict about it.

Basically this person is very ill and getting worse. While the allopathic docs claim it just one of those things it is pretty obvious to the rest of us involved (with the same genetic problems and potential illness) that the vast majority of the current situation is due directly to this person not taking care of themselves. Without going into a huge amount of detail to avoid privacy issues I'll offer that everyone who knows this person agrees that they are not doing the basic work required to improve their health and are holding out for a magic pill cure.

An attitude which obviously drives me fucking batty.

So the people involved have tried more conventional means of intervening and achieved no results. With this in mind I feel with all conventional suggestions and actions being rejected by this person it maybe time to bring out the big guns (it's that or emotionally disengage which honestly I can't do).

So the big guns involve asking this person for persmission to invoke our shared Ancestors and to some extent shared Pantheon. I personally know from working with these Folks I can expect a combination of something akin to soul retrival and burning the house down to motivate someone to move. Basically it's an act of magic to ask Them to make this person be invested in their own well being and to address the internal work that needs to happen. Bootstrapping another person on this level just feels wrong to me ethically but sometimes you have to try and save the suicidal just so they see it can be done. Jump starting the wounded soul.

It might not even work at all but I feel it is the last thing on the list to try.

For the record I usually refuse to do healing or magic on behalf of anyone who can't be bothered to take action on their own with the obvious things and just want the quick fix. I will however pray for them to get motivated but I won't do their work.