BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


New X-Men #154

 
  

Page: 1 ... 23456(7)89101112... 18

 
 
Alex Thoth
19:43 / 18.03.04
i think the "momentary distraction" was Jean Grey's entire mortal life, as seen on the scale of the White Hot Room.

Yeah, that's how I saw it.
 
 
Simplist
20:32 / 18.03.04
Very happy with this. Not much else to say that hasn't already been said--like some others here I was somewhat skeptical that Grant would manage to pull things together, but he pulled it off marvelously. I look forward to reading the whole thing in a sitting when the third hardcover appears.
 
 
Alex Thoth
20:46 / 18.03.04
"you have to water it with your heart's blood"

This is the only line that seemed weird in the whole issue, kina jarring. What does that even mean anyway?
 
 
Aertho
20:59 / 18.03.04
Well, imp, you read Promethea, right? I read that line and it said to me that in order to fix the problem with the universe, you gotta sacrifice your personal desires in order to know what's right -in order to do the right thing -in order to have the power to do the right thing.

Sacrifice yourself to your own compassion.

Quasi-mystical, yeah, but Jean gave up Scott in order for the fuure to be new.
 
 
quentin
21:00 / 18.03.04
Way back when Quentine Quire died, he sadi the ebnemy was inside all along. He was right about sublime. I was wondering what you guys thought he meant about him not being born yet. He also said he will meet his parents in a room. Did he mean the white hot room? I'm also confused on why he was there with all of the Phoenixes. COuld someone clarify this? Thanks.
 
 
Aertho
21:04 / 18.03.04
//Seems to me that Jean and the other universal Phoenixes, including "potentials" like QQ, are merely sentient creatures who've psionically ascended to the point where the Phoenix Force can reach in and use them as fictionsuits from outside of time. The point of the Phoenix reaching in is to heal the universe through nano-surgery. But how does that make sense, you ask? The universe is NOT a sentient bacteria colony or Hank's broken heart... Ah! But it IS exactly those things. The universe INCLUDES all matter, all energy, all life, and all thought. The Phoenixes arise to fix broken cells, burn away others... nano-surgery. I totally get it. Individuality is like pretty wrapping paper. It all gets thrown out after Christmas, you know?//

Is that clear enough? I don't recognize you from other posts, so I'm not sure you're down with our lingo. Like fictionsuits, "outside of time", ...much less the forty years of Phoenix lore.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
21:09 / 18.03.04
So, there's no other actual mention of Weapon XIV, we've concluded?
 
 
Aertho
21:11 / 18.03.04
Nope. I checked a long time ago. Not a single one.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
21:13 / 18.03.04
Okay. I'm glad that's cleared up. I still buy the prevailing explanation, though.
 
 
Alex Thoth
21:14 / 18.03.04
Well, imp, you read Promethea, right? I read that line and it said to me that in order to fix the problem with the universe, you gotta sacrifice your personal desires in order to know what's right -in order to do the right thing -in order to have the power to do the right thing.

Sacrifice yourself to your own compassion.


Beautifully said, still seems a bit too touchy feely for New X-Men but it and it makes perfect sense now.

And Mr. Birdie, did you check in the issues with multiple man or any of the early Fantomex issues? I think there may have been a mention there but I'm not sure and I don't have the comics with me to check.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
21:18 / 18.03.04
Aparrently, Chesed has done the dirty work for all of us. Now I need never read New X-Men again!

 
 
Aertho
21:21 / 18.03.04
If dirty work means reading Lucifer Principle, The Implicate Order, and A Brief History of Everything. Then yes, I done dem dirty deeds cheap. :P
 
 
jephyork
23:21 / 18.03.04
Oh Lord. Into the lion's den here, as this is my first post.

After reading that Kick was Sublime in aerosol form all along, I started thinking about who the Kick dealer was. It's been widely thought that it was Esme, but never really substantiated in-book -- other than that she seemed to have gotten Magneto hooked on it.

So I re-read #140-141, where Bishop and Sage investigate the Riot. Redneck mentions that Quentin used to go into the woods behind the Institute and come back with a bag of inhalers ... and when Sage goes back there to look, she finds inhalers just lying on the ground.

She originally mistakes them for mushrooms.

Now that we know that Kick was a creation of Sublime, made to infect mutants with aggression -- and Sublime is in every strand of DNA on earth -- what are the odds that it wasn't Sublime Pharmaceuticals that manufactured the drug?

What are the odds that it just grew up out of the ground, inhalers and all, in the woods behind the Xavier Institute?

Quentin would go back there and just pick the mushrooms.

Just a thought ... any other takes on this?

-Jeph!
 
 
Mario
23:33 / 18.03.04
Weapon XIV *is* mentioned. On the "Triplets Rule" page, in the caption boxes.

[Stepford Cuckooes//
Version01/03/04//]

[Weapon XIV///
Consciousness
self destruct
sequence///]

Near as I can tell, the comment about Weapon XIV being shelved was a misinterpretaion by one reviewer.

As for the fifth Cuckoo's name, I've been converted to Chesed's SPICE theory
 
 
Aertho
23:40 / 18.03.04
Thanks, but the SPICE theory doesn't work anymore.

Unless the numbers don't mean shit. The remaining Cuckoos are numbered 1,3, and 4 and I think YOU were the one who came up with the extrapolated CS*PE combos. If the personality-rich SPICE girls WERE the kickoff point for the personality-less Cuckoos, then the Triplets would be numbered 2,3, and 4.

Maybe Grant wants us to use white out again and interact with his story.

If that's the case, then I'm voting for Ione.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
23:46 / 18.03.04
Yeah, I just meant if XIV was mentioned outside of the one in 154.
 
 
Mario
00:18 / 19.03.04
Yeah, SPICE doesn't match the numbers, but looking at the possibilities (and given that my PSYCHE idea was based on a lack of sleep ), very few words seem likely (PECOS? PSICE?).
 
 
Aertho
00:34 / 19.03.04
Jeph! you win the craziest theory award. It sounds totally Morrison-esque, though.

So that's two for the SPICE Cuckoos, any other converts ? Irené is a good name too.
 
 
Mario
00:53 / 19.03.04
Possibly irrelevant, but...

Did you know that, in craps, one of the slang terms for the number "five" is...Phoebe?

(I checked...the other names aren't also slang)
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
01:06 / 19.03.04
So, hang on... it was a dream, a "what if", or an imaginary tale?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
01:30 / 19.03.04
I just read those last two and a half pages really fast, so I hope I do not accidentally restate things other people have mentioned! (I'm pressed for time.)

What a beautiful ending! I loved all the stuff with Jean in the White Hot Room.

When Cassandra taunts Henry early in the series, she wonders if he will eventually devolve into a bacteria or a virus. I appreciate that when the Sublime DNA finally takes sentient form, it is in the body of a man whose mutation symbolizes evolution in reverse. Nicely done.

I also like that the Phoenix's disinfection was literal - she killed the evil bacteria! And more than that, the Phoenix "burns away what doesn't work" - in the end, she destroys the outdated genetic material of the world. The Phoenix's job all along was to make the old DNA extinct - it's like the comet that kills the dinosaurs or whatever.

And c'mon kids, Appolyon = Fantomex all Darth Vader'd up. "He's more (U-Man) now than man." The mutual death scene for him and EVA was there for a reason.
 
 
Quimper
02:10 / 19.03.04
Yeah. I thought so too. Why *wouldn't* it be Fantomex? As soon as Fantomex got off that train, he acted like he wanted "Phoenix grafts," if you "catch my drift"...

Actually, after reading Assault, he mos def wanted Cyclops grafts.

But I mean..."i am no longer bonded to him after...what happened" and "make me complete! make me complete!" ...it makes at least a safe assumption.
 
 
Gary Lactus
02:10 / 19.03.04
(Spaliance/Runce/Your Mum: The Pig)

I think one of the weirdigans up there already mentioned the devolution thing, fluxoK.

I've really enjoyed HTC, actually. Mozzer's final arcs (well, the last ish of this and the Invissy 1) feel like the first issues of a brand new book. And I love that. Bumbleboy.... Superb.

I'll probably have more to say when I'm less stoned and pissed.

Haus: The Ox - I really don't see why the dream/imaginary story/other stuff ending bothers you so much. I'm sure, like all of us, you live on a steady diet of cliched closure. Or is it that yr prepared to forgive, say, 'Return of the King' (just an example - don't know if you dig it) in a way yr not prepared to forgive Bald Scottish? Do you just demand more from him? Is it because he goes on a bit about the future and stuff and being a 5D squid really? Does he fail to "walk the walk"?

I mean, err, isn't it the execution the most important thing?

Who is that ginger punk/schoolboy in Peter Davison-era Dr. Who?
 
 
Mario
03:13 / 19.03.04
You mean Turlough? If I remember correctly, he was recruited by an evil being to kill the Doctor. The actor, Mark Strickson, has more or less vanished. I saw him in one of the interminable versions of CHRISTMAS CAROL (the George C Scott version).

Personally, I don't see it as a dream, or a What If. It's not a What If, it's a Once Was. A literal Untold Tale, because first it was told, and then it was untold.
 
 
The Falcon
03:52 / 19.03.04
I think Tannhoser is referring to Plastic Man #3, perhaps.

"All tales are imaginary. What's wrong with you?!"

Phoenix Corps, dudes.

Grant lies when he says he will not write Green Lantern.
 
 
Mario
04:17 / 19.03.04
Alan Moore said it first:

"This is an imaginary story...

Aren't they all?"
 
 
cube is generally elsewhere
08:54 / 19.03.04
Just to add to the SPICE theory, can I just posit the possibility that Grant is referring to what little girls and boys are made of. The Girls are made of sugar and spice and all things nice. The Boys are slugs and snails and puppy dog tails (or goop and beasts...).
 
 
DaveBCooper
11:06 / 19.03.04
Well, I’ll admit I enjoyed that more than I expected to on the basis of the past few issues.

God knows about additional cuckoos and Weapon XIV and qabbalistic elements, but it was better – and certainly better-written than the rest of this arc, though I had problems with the art (more on that in a mo). It was rather exposition-heavy, though I guess that was a necessity (and didn’t that page with Logan semi-summarising what had gone on break Marvel’s recent rule about no flashbacks, or am I imagining that rule?), though The Beast/Sublime’s talk to Appolyon rather reminded me of the old 80s JLA jokes about Manga Khan talking out loud; rather melodramatic, and occasionally a bit too comic-book clichey for my tastes.

The art, though, I had quite serious troubles with, as Silvestri’s stuff is so ‘old school’ or whatever you want to call it, that the actual flow and choreography is quite hard to follow: examples would be the page where Logan attacks Sublime – we see Logan running towards him from behind and to the side, and then in the ‘Stitch this, Bub’ panel he’s in front of him… or kind of to the side, but with no sense of how he got there. In the same panel, incidentally, it’s far from easy to tell which of Sublime’s legs are which.

Speaking of far from easy to tell, I had absolutely NO idea what was going on in the panel where Tito/Beak was lying dying, and had to stare at that for a few seconds to make out what was going on. Sometimes Silvestri’s art looks like he’s just done the outlines and left it to the colourist to make items and dimensions distinct, which seems a bit cheeky.
More examples :
- In the two panels of Logan dying, there’s virtually no way to tell who he is. The close-up on his face doesn’t look much like Logan at all (what is this, the end of ‘Jagged Edge’?), and in the next panel, the distance and lack of, for example, claws, doesn’t help.
- I have absolutely no idea what or who kills Martha and Cassandra. Do they just explode or something ? Who does it, Beast or Jean ?
- Skylark says Sublime’s huge/gigantic/whatever (working from memory), but in the panels before and after there’s little indication of this, Sublime looks to be about 8-9 feet tall. Not THAT big, especially as Skylark’s used to hanging around with a Sentinel.
- Oh, and the panels depicting Sublime losing his head are very poorly done - again, the actual choreography doesn’t flow at all.

I appreciate that Silvestri’s art has a kind of nostalgic appeal for many, and whilst it never did that much for me, I wasn’t anti- going in. The story’s just made harder to follow by the way he’s drawn it, and that isn’t a good thing, right ?

Speaking of the story, whilst I’m not entirely convinced by the RNA thing, it did at least go some way to explaining why Magneto was acting as he was, and why Quentin Quire was essentially about conflict – or, rather, just opposition to Xavier’s approach, without any bigger agenda. The problem I have with the RNA thing is that it’s just SO big it can never really be resolved – it’s like saying that the X-Men face an enemy so prevalent that they’ll never defeat it. Which arguably gives an emotional and more noble edge to their ongoing struggle, but it means the tale could go on for… well, ever. Which is good news from a frequency-of-publication thing, but not so hot for anyone who wants to read the whole story, which seems to be quite a few people posting on Barbelith.

Speaking of the story, bit unclear : so Jean’s cauterisation of the wounded universe takes it back to the point of her funeral (well, her latest funeral, anyway)? So New York’s still been decimated by Magneto, who’s been decapitated ? And Xavier’s still going to step down as head of the school and all that ?
Oh, and had Henry figured everything out – as he appeared to have done when he was afloat with Emma a few issues ago – why would he take Kick ?

I rather hope that these comments don’t just get dismissed or ignored, as I was very hopeful about Grant’s run on the title, but I think it just ran out of steam (or perhaps he ran out of interest: I heard an interesting rumour that he decided on the Xorn switcheroo after Jemas nixed Marvel Boy II, almost as a lashout, which would explain why the Xorn thing doesn’t REALLY work and is laden with plotholes, interesting as it was). I think it compares unfavourably with, say, his JLA work (trying to do a like-for-like comparison there), the main weakness being that there are large plotholes, characters who don’t really go anywhere (Dust, Mer-Max, etc – there was a good column by Steven Grant at http://www.comicbookresources.com the other week about comic characters with costumes and names and little more in terms of characterisation, and a lot of the characters in ‘’Planet X’ and Here Comes Tomorrow’ suffer this way), and that a lot of the stuff appears to be happening off the page.

Long and rambling post, but in summary : might not be a bad run as X-Men comics go, but pretty disappointing for Grant work. I appreciate that a lot of people have strong affection for the characters and the series, but without that… well, bit of a wasted opportunity.
 
 
Sax
11:38 / 19.03.04
Funny, on first reading I thought Weapon XIV was Cerebra...
 
 
El Directo
11:49 / 19.03.04
This is the first comic in a long time to have made me cry. I'm a sucker for all those heroic last stand moments. Life felt better afterwards.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
12:38 / 19.03.04
Anyone with any intention of dismissing or ignoring such a well thought out post can eat doo doo. 'Nuff said.

Speaking of the story, whilst I’m not entirely convinced by the RNA thing, it did at least go some way to explaining why Magneto was acting as he was, and why Quentin Quire was essentially about conflict – or, rather, just opposition to Xavier’s approach, without any bigger agenda. The problem I have with the RNA thing is that it’s just SO big it can never really be resolved – it’s like saying that the X-Men face an enemy so prevalent that they’ll never defeat it. Which arguably gives an emotional and more noble edge to their ongoing struggle, but it means the tale could go on for… well, ever. Which is good news from a frequency-of-publication thing, but not so hot for anyone who wants to read the whole story, which seems to be quite a few people posting on Barbelith.

It is awfully big and unlikely to ever be truly defeated. However, in order for his/her/its scheme to work, its got to be under the optimal circumstances which, thanks to Phoenix, will never occur. Hank's heart will never be broken.

Speaking of Quire, after another flip through, that panel of Xavier at Quire's, er, tubside is pretty heart rending now, considering what a true waste it was. Sublime destroyed this boy's life, eating it away from the inside.

I think I hate him.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:02 / 19.03.04
Haus: The Ox - I really don't see why the dream/imaginary story/other stuff ending bothers you so much. I'm sure, like all of us, you live on a steady diet of cliched closure. Or is it that yr prepared to forgive, say, 'Return of the King' (just an example - don't know if you dig it) in a way yr not prepared to forgive Bald Scottish? Do you just demand more from him? Is it because he goes on a bit about the future and stuff and being a 5D squid really? Does he fail to "walk the walk"?


I'm a little confused - did I mention closure? Dreams, hoaxes and imaginary tales (referring to the classic Silver Age cover blazon "This is not a dream, a hoax or an imaginary tale!" - Supergirl's wedding? - which is presumably also the reference point of Alan Moore and Plastic Man) can all have or not have closure, can't they? In fact, is it not the criticism of the child's "and it was all a dream" ending that it does not provide closure, because the ending to the story has no congruent connection to the preceding narrative - that is, that it fails to provide closure? I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here - The Return of the King and Grant Morrison's run on X-Men both have *conclusions*, but I'm not clear on what comparisons you are aiming to draw between them. Oh, and you're assuming that it *does* bother me so much, which is one of those moments where you're assuming things about somebody's personality or emotions that are not supported by the available evidence when they don't agree with you. We've talked about this before.

In this clase the conclusion, in which the hero manages to send a communication back from the future in order to alter the present, ensuring that this horrible, wrong future never takes place, does not annoy me because it creates closure. It does somewhat annoy me because it is a retread of the storyline from Rock of Ages. There's even another mutant whale. Also, it became clear about two episodes into "Here Comes Tomorrow" that, since there was not going to be enough space to explain and resolve this in any meaningful way beyond "and that never happened! Crazy, huh?", the only motivation for the story appeared to be an opportunity to indulge a desire to pay homage to the editorial genius of Scott Lobdell (it was Lobdell who came up with the Age of Apocalypse, yes?). Now, don't get me wrong: I enjoyed the crazy fun of speculating with Grant Morrison about how a future set of X-Men, made up of all the characters he had invented, would look, and enjoyed the Liefeldy excess of the whole thing, but I can't help but feel that the four issues could more usefully have been spent, especially as this way we have the frankly rather tacky sight of Scott snogging Emma over his wife's grave in order to set up the next run. After lots of nice treatment of the Emma-Scott-Jean triangle, this is a poor ending, and has been crowbarred in because the previosu 110 pages have been devoted to "What if Cyclops had abandoned the X-Men?".

So, although I like the idea (never to be revisited) that the dominant species urge was Magneto all along (although I would have liked it better if there had been a clearer connection between Sublime and Kick - or did I miss that? And Morrison is doing his usual thing of explaining a plot that doesn't quite hang together veryveryquickly and then making a building explode), and I enjoyed HCT, I can't help but feel it was a bit of a wasted opportunity in some ways.

Of course, there's a fundamental potential point of difference here: some like Morrison for his ideas, others for his treatment of characters and dialogue. I think I fall into the latter camp...
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
13:06 / 19.03.04
Does anyone really think either Austen or Claremont would deign to pick up the Sublime idea from where Grant left off?
I don't think either of them could handle it to be honest... Chris isn't into that sort of foe, he likes them shadow-y and mysterious but very obviously beatable. Austen just likes ham-fisted romance. I can't imagine Sublime as an entity will ever return.
More likely is the Weapon X version of using the heralds of Sublime (John) as the only continuation of that threat. And hey, John's dead... end of story.

I just don't see Sublime becoming the new Apocalypse (yeah yeah or the old Apocalypse etc etc) or Magneto in future writers hands. His personification has been defeated and it took him 150 years to get that far even with a helping hand from Junkie McCoy...
Sublime leaves with Grant I think.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
13:08 / 19.03.04
Perhaps the neatest storytelling GM’s done since Zenith (okay, maybe Filth was expertly framed, endlessly self-referential and wholly self-contained but…..).

NEWXMEN was:

Beautifully wrapped up.

I was:

Please to see Beast was Beast after all. (you know wot I mean)

Pleased that scott and emma are together.

Pleased at the unfettered soap-soaked beauty that was grant’s X-Men.

Pleased to see grant tell his one and only story one more time.

Cos its such a good story.

Loved the connection between ‘writing’ and ‘gene manipulation’.

Ahhhh……….

Only regret: the raft of shit art around the shi-ar shtuff.
 
 
houdini
16:17 / 19.03.04
Haus: pay homage to the editorial genius of Scott Lobdell (it was Lobdell who came up with the Age of Apocalypse, yes?)

To be fair, I'm pretty sure that he was trying to pay homage to Days Of Futures Past - which was great, but is responsible for starting this meme of self-replicating X-Men non-worlds.

It's true that, in practice, this prolly came out more Age of Apocalypse than DoFP, but I can't imagine that's the intention.

In regard to everything else you've said in this post, I agree.

But I liked the story anyway. I guess I long anticipated and "alright" ending to this, so I wasn't particularly let down by what came along.
 
  

Page: 1 ... 23456(7)89101112... 18

 
  
Add Your Reply