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From tiny thought-forms massive gods do grow ... maybe

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02:14 / 20.09.06

I do realise that that image is a very late image of him but it's quite a cool one. Serpents as slippers anyone? Come on! We've all been there!!

02:23 / 20.09.06

And also... That wikipedia entry on Heka is amazingly bad. I'm sure there is better infomation on hir on the web somwhere.

09:19 / 20.09.06

The whole different faces via different mediums and cultures issue is one I have heard best attributed via "Paths".

How sepparate different paths of a god or spirit may be I don't really know, but some seem more similar than others. It's most obvious with Erzulie, where different paths are downright extremely different. La Siren isn't all that similar to Erzulie Danto, beyond that they're both female.

I've seen several different faces of Freya, on a personal level, some of which present more readily than others through me. A friend of mine who also works with Freya often gets Her more sexual paths, wheras I tend to get Her more magically-oriented paths. But my atheist boyfriend asked to please meet Freya, because he had specifically noted on one occasion that I was behaving like somebody else, and wanted to meet Her again to see if the weird negative vibe he got was internal because dissociative personality problems bug him in general, or because Freya wasn't a personality he liked.

We invited my friend over, and she played hostess while I invited Freya down. The face Freya showed then was somewhat different than I'd ever felt before - She was adjusting rather specifically for my boyfriend's comfort. After he was done speaking with Her through me, I came out of the trance, and my friend invited Freya down. For the first time either of us had ever seen, we got the same face of Freya. And yet it was a face neither of us had ever met before that evening. Freya was very pointedly demonstrating that She exists sepparately from either me or my friend.

It definitely made an impression on my boyfriend, but he's not sure what to make of it, and the whole thing has been shelved.

So... I guess I normally percieve that yes, we cannot help but be filters for our gods. And yet, it seems like They have some choice in the matter, how They slide through or past those filters. I get the distinct impression They actually choose how to manifest according to what is needful, and what will best suit the environment and audience They are dealing with.

--Ember--

09:30 / 20.09.06

(As usual, sorry for the double post. I always seem to miss something on the first pass...)

Quantum: At the moment I'm tempted to start with The Magician

It might be of interest to you that there's a group called Magical Acts Ritual Theatre that does a production called Oracles From the Living Tarot about once a year. I've done it twice now, and I've got to say, I'm really surprised at how much there is to sink into, trance-wise. I've done The Chariot and I've done Judgement for an audience, and I've gotten pings from Death, The Empress, The Hierophant, and The Magician as well, though not all of them are fully developed.

Admittedly, it's not quite the same, in my experience, as Posession by a distinct personified spirit or god, but it's definitely related, and the concept may give you a solid place to start.

For me, working on The Chariot ended up, for some reason, being connected to Coyote. The connection popped up when I got into The Chariot, and He hasn't pinged me for more than a comment or two since the project ended.

Judgement didn't connect with any specific deities, though.

Death, of course, connects with Ghede for me.

I aspire to the Fool someday

--Ember--

11:09 / 20.09.06

The whole different faces via different mediums and cultures issue is one I have heard best attributed via "Paths".

That’s a great way to look at it I think. Once I had a conversation with a Santero, and he was commenting on the 256 or so “roads” of Eleggua, and their specific qualities. I suspect that when one adds to that the additional manifestations of the crossroads trickster found in other Afro-Diasporic traditions (Legba, Exu, Papa LaBas) you can end up with infinite personifications of a similar mystery.

On a similar note, when I was reading The Goddess of Love: The Birth, Triumph and Return of Aphrodite by Geoffrey Grigson (wonderful btw), I was amazed at all the “surnames” that the Goddess picked up through various points in history, and various geographical locations in the Hellenistic world. Each surname functioned as a road of manifestation; some roads radically different. For instance, Aphrodite Ambologera postpones old age, while Aphrodite Androphonos is known as “the killer of men”.

11:39 / 20.09.06

The same phenomenon happens in the Catholic Church with paths of Mary, Mother of Christ. All those "Our lady of..." throughout the latin world. Neighboring towns would actually have conflicts over whose path of Mary was more prominent, despite the fact that it was very clear within the church that there is only ONE Mary, Mother of Christ.

--Ember--

Henningjohnathan

17:54 / 20.09.06

Some of this reminds me of an interesting section of a Jacques Vallee (author, THE INVISIBLE COLLEGE) interview where he discusses the visions of the Virgin Mary and Angels in South America. Initially, in the most famous cases, there are simply the regular UFO reports of floating lights appearing, disappearing and moving at incredible speeds. Then some of the witnesses start to say that they saw an angel. Afterward, more people started seeingt he phenomenon as a divine being and then when it made contact it was the Virgin Mary expousing explanations, advice and visions of the future.

Is there a physical (matter-energy) component to these divine beings that is not entirely psychological?

XK

18:04 / 20.09.06

Is there a physical (matter-energy) component to these divine beings that is not entirely psychological?

short answer: Yup

long answer: You might want to read this book

22:54 / 20.09.06

Initially, in the most famous cases, there are simply the regular UFO reports of floating lights appearing, disappearing and moving at incredible speeds. Then some of the witnesses start to say that they saw an angel. Afterward, more people started seeingt he phenomenon as a divine being

That correlates, if I'm not mistaken, to the Old Testament descriptions of Elija's transport? Ezikiel saw a wheel-in-a-wheel of light, spinning in the air?

That kinda sounds like the other side of the coin to the Men in Black phenomenon, which folklorist Peter Rojcewicz noted has many similar elements to visits with the fey, or the devil. It seems like both the good guy pattern and the accompanying bad guys pattern repeat, except that it's only usually attributed as good guys/bad guys.

I'm not espousing research here, I'm just riffing, but it seems interesting to me that the Good Guys pattern historically would be considered opposite the Bad Guys pattern ("Bad men in black clothes tried to lead me astray from the Good Glowy Lights people"), but nowadays Men in Black are considered directly related to the UFO phenomenon ("Glowy Lights didn't want witnesses, so they sent Bad Men in black clothes to threaten me into silence").

Why would there be such a shift?

(The whole thing reminds me of Babylon 5, actually...)

--Ember--

Ev

23:48 / 20.09.06

Is there a physical (matter-energy) component to these divine beings that is not entirely psychological?

short response to previous short answer: Maybe

long answer: What would constitute satisfactory proof?

Personally, despite plenty of weird coincidences over decades I've never yet encountered anything that settles the matter.

Unconditional Love

00:36 / 21.09.06

Ghadis there are two holes in hekas hands, any ideas what he held,(aside from his cock) one looks like it may well of been a banner or spear, the other looks to be at the angle of a weapon, thou it also reminds me of the sumerian deitys with there handbags. Or perhaps an ankh.

DRR... DRR... DRR...

10:22 / 21.09.06

My friend still struggles with her a bit, even now, years and years on. He finds her too demanding at times, and resentments seem to build on both sides of the mirror. She simultaneously fascinates and frightens him. It was perhaps easier for me to more completely embrace her mysteries, seeing as how they are an essential part of my own psyche. I didn’t put up much of a fight; there was no need to. Those mysteries are close to my heart and integral to my nature.

This is pretty interesting to me. I would have kind of expected these Beings to select allies whose characters and ways of living reflected Their own mysteries, creating a sort of positive feedback loop where the precence of the Deity in the person's life reinforces that person's key traits, and the human ally manifests the Deity's mysteries through their own deeds. Yet I'm realising that there are people who couldn't be less like their patrons, at least when they start out. (I'm sort of a case in point. Not much Loki in my makeup...)

11:01 / 21.09.06

Ghadis there are two holes in hekas hands, any ideas what he held

Well, like i said up thread, the statue looks like it may be quite late in Egyptian history, and looks like it may even be an image of a composite Heka-Bes deity, and as such , not that representative of Heka imagery.

Having said that, though, i'd say that he almost certainly held two serpents. This was the most common physical attribute of Heka (and was also common for later Bes imagery) Here he is with Maat and Auser...

This feels like a bit of a thread derailment though (actually my original post looks a bit thread rotty in the sober daylight and not really what Quantum was asking for) but you're welcome to PM or we could start a more related thread.

XK

15:25 / 21.09.06

I would like a thread on the depictions of various beings. do we have such a thread in storage?

18:45 / 21.09.06

Don't recall such a thread xk. I may start one later and carry on the Heka stuff there. Especially because, after thinking about that image a bit, i think it's far more likely to be an image of Bes than Heka (albeit with Heka influence). That'll teach me to link to the first wikipedia image i come across!!

19:21 / 21.09.06

And especially in an introduction to said deity type post! Embarrassing for all concerned really!

(shuffles feet and stares at shoes) :-I

Quantum
(prev. Quantum - terribly nonplussed)

19:32 / 21.09.06

Heka you say... that would be why Hekau is magic, aha, and Ren-Hekau name magic. (more in a mo, I'm trying to reduce the pic so it's less breaky)

XK

20:04 / 21.09.06

no worries ghadis, this here be a workshop thread. We're all hammering stuff out.

20:37 / 21.09.06

Quantum , that's how I feel, that's my Part E - looking for the Godform that lives in Part E in my brain, but whom I do not yet know.

Quantum
(prev. Quantum - terribly nonplussed)

21:04 / 21.09.06

Thanks everyone- 'belle, I'm glad it's not just me.

Get back to what really interested you about magic when you were a kid.

The magic. Diana Wynne-Jones, Merlin, my mum used to tell me the norse stories at bedtime and I'd love the mistletoe dart or the chain of seven impossible things to imprison Fenris or the bottomless horn that was actually the sea... Gandalf and the Nibelung and wizards in RPGs and in Gauntlet and Jedi and the warlock on Firetop mountain, stage magic and cinematic special effects, my adolescence was basically a long slow realisation that actually, levitation and fireball throwing was only possible in fiction.
Gutted.

My mum read Tarot though so I started getting into that after my atheist/materialist/scornful sceptic phase. Now, a dozen years later, I find myself back at the beginning like the fool, thinking that reality is fictional and thus magic is real*, and that a relationship with a deity is becoming more and more inevitable. I'm hoping to jump before I'm pushed, so, first step- research. See the new gods of magic thread, I'll stop rotting this one.

*damn philosophy degree

XK

22:21 / 21.09.06

really you are not rotting it. I'm digging this thread has developed a habit of letting people get all reflective on their relationships with the Divine.

To share my current 'oh-right' moment.....

I've been researching different manifestations of my God and using names as part of the matching up process. Names and places and habits are the puzzle pieces.
Anyhow I was running translations on His names and got all frustrated because the names translate to descriptions and I wanted a *proper* name to pop up. Then I thought of my name and sure it sounds like a distinct noun type of thing but it is also a descriptive. Duh.

Um and the funny thing is my description is a diminutive form of His.

Ev KG:
I always think of how light shining through a stained-glass window takes on the color of the window.

I suspect I just need to stand in the glow and let the giant wheels in my head go all liquid.

DRR... DRR... DRR...

23:23 / 21.09.06

Quants, Lula, I've got to ask: Why do you need a God in there at all? If Someone turns up and says "Okay, you--you'll be working with me from now on!" that's one thing, but you don't need to go looking for Them. There's spirit everywhere: in people, in animals, in the plants and the earth and the air. The world is full of life, waiting to play.

You don't need to find a God.

XK

02:06 / 22.09.06

Yes I have to agree with Mordant. Your default setting should be for a fufilling expression of your own magical reality not a shoppping list for a new religion.

If (Quantum in particular) you're looking to find a catalyst/mentor the process might be better phrased as seeking a Muse.

Sometimes it is great to have an inspirational influence in your life that doesn't wake you up at 5 AM because you REALLY HAVE TO GET THE ORANGE TO THE RIVER NOW.

Quantum
(prev. Quantum - terribly nonplussed)

16:12 / 22.09.06

Quants, Lula, I've got to ask: Why do you need a God in there at all? MC

Well, personally I don't *need* a god at all, in the sense of 'I need a boyfriend/job/sports car!' but I do want to develop a relationship with a more... sapient aspect of the world. I'm all about the appreciation of Malkuth and the divine in the mundane for sure- There's spirit everywhere: in people, in animals, in the plants and the earth and the air. The world is full of life, waiting to play. So true! And yet, I feel a nagging sensation as though there's someone looking over my shoulder. What I need is good advice and support, a sponsor if you will, for the next steps I'm planning to take on my path. To use a mountaineering metaphor I'm fine getting a native guide, have the equipment and a map, but need a wealthy eccentric philanthropist on board to tackle K2.

If (Quantum in particular) you're looking to find a catalyst/mentor the process might be better phrased as seeking a Muse.

Not a muse or mentor so much as a patron or ally. Ally in the Don Juan sense, patron in the spirit sense, a magical team to join if you will. Not just arbitrarily, for the sake of it, but because I feel it's overdue and if I don't the universe will start sending signs that are less and less subtle. Jump before I'm pushed.

Having found out by chance yesterday that the temple of Solomon was completed on my birthday, it reminded me that I have a seal of Solomon tattoo on my arm and have had for over a dozen years, and he was a fairly accomplished magician who is semi-deified. Duh! Maybe I should start there methinks, ask his advice, he's quite wise.

It's reassuring in a way when something was IN YOUR FACE THE WHOLE TIME I suppose, but it does leave you feeling very stoopid. Eh, xk?

18:53 / 22.09.06

If you're up for a new thread on Solomon, I'd be eager to follow it -- he's one of the most fascinating figures in the Old Testament. David, his father, couldn't build the Temple for God because David had killed too many people. Solomon, David's (probably bastard) son could, and did, and grew great in wisdom and renown... but then at the end of his life, Solomon lapses into idolatry and turns away from God. Is a strange arc.

Quantum
(prev. Quantum - terribly nonplussed)

19:22 / 22.09.06

I'd love to write it as a story from the perspective of Bathsheba. I might start that thread.

Unconditional Love

19:59 / 22.09.06

you could go looking for the god like aspect in every human being you encounter, including your own reflection, and perhaps summise that they are all of one spirit reflected in many different faces.

A goddess helped me scan some bread today, she was the goddess of self payment scanners, a sublime beautiful indian women, i am guessing she is the goddess of many other things as well.

Why do we look away from ourselves to find gods and goddesses? I have been contemplating that since yesterday night from a conversation with a friend. Why are we looking outside of everyday qualities and interactions for a greater power than ourselves, are we that ashamed by our own fragility and weaknesses that we have to create super parents to care for us, or is it a strong desire to keep a part of ourselves childlike in its relationship to things?

Its a perplexing notion for me at the moment having spent the last 5 neigh on years trying to establish a working relationship with various powers, and finding it to be a difficult process, having some willing to work with me and others reject me outright, i am beginning to wonder if this process reflected my faith and joy in life turned outwards and another way to relate to that process is to turn that process inwards and learn to love the self for all of what it is, warts and all so to speak.

Or perhaps they are just different interactions of the same process, different strokes for different folks.

DRR... DRR... DRR...

14:38 / 23.09.06

I feel it's overdue and if I don't the universe will start sending signs that are less and less subtle. Jump before I'm pushed.

Bollocks, you should play hard to get. Make the buggers court you a bit.

Quantum
(prev. Quantum - terribly nonplussed)

16:13 / 23.09.06

I am just not used to 'dating' that way. If I waited for someone to come along and woo me I'd still be virginal, my dating technique is to find someone I really like and then persuade them to fall in love with me by badgering them. Perhaps I should practice batting my etheric third-eyelashes and tossing my astral hair.
Treat 'em mean keep 'em keen you reckon?

DRR... DRR... DRR...

16:46 / 23.09.06

Thing is, if Someone really has Hir eye in you you're kind of screwed anyway. Eventually, Ze'll come and get ya. I agree that it's unwise to wait until Ze breaks out the Clueyville Slugger, but you might as well hold out for Hir best offer.

If not, it seems kind of unnecessary to go looking for a divine patron to take over your affairs. The idea that you should go straight to the Gods for your magic is a fairly recent one; you can certainly get up the mountain without Them. Even someone like Solomon--how would you go about winning his aid, what's in it for him? Maybe look closer to home: the local landwights, the city spirits, the local Dead, your own ancestors. They know plenty, have more power than you'd suspect, and may well have a vested interest in seeing you prosper and develop.

Quantum
(prev. Quantum - terribly nonplussed)

17:08 / 23.09.06

I think perhaps I'm just looking for an experience of an entity that is more independent of my mind than what I've met so far, and maybe that's a matter of technique rather than target. Also the idea of an ascended-master style teacher is hugely tempting of course, the appeal of the notion of secret chiefs is seductive. Hmm, more thought needed.

Play it cool Quantum, you're a honey trap baby. *Tosses astral hair*

XK

18:25 / 23.09.06

It's reassuring in a way when something was IN YOUR FACE THE WHOLE TIME I suppose, but it does leave you feeling very stoopid. Eh, xk?

indeed, but as I was reminded the other day may of us get satisfaction from running through the math so to speak rather than just being content with the end result.

Yesterday I went to America's Stonehenge to spend the day with the Deads. You know I only live a nice motorcycle ride away from the place and yet how often do I get there? All my attention is on getting back to Ireland to visit the sites I'm researching and I have to stop myself and remember what's in my backyard. It's a massive freakin' calender site aligned exactly like my favorites over the ocean and yet for some reason I don't pay as much attention to it as I should. Duh.

The point of your quest might be to undergo the alchemical process of changing yourself, not finding a specific end destination (or to get all uppity the mystical goal is of course, yourself.) But you know that.

I was a-speakin' to one of my good friends yesterday about why we sometimes fall crazy in love with lunatic losers we know are going to mess us up. Some part of our psyche craves that dramatic wringing out gutter crawl because it allows us to rebuild ourselves. We burn the dross of our cumulated lives in the fire of intense experience to be left purified with greater self awareness. Sure it sounds stupid on paper and involves being an utter ass but for some of us it is the way we evolve.

I know Mysteries work the same exact way. You can't just be told the words of the thing you have to experience the thing. I believe Quantum what you're after is the experience of working with your God. Remember what Mordant said and find a good chocolatier.

Quantum
(prev. Quantum - terribly nonplussed)

16:16 / 24.09.06

We burn the dross of our cumulated lives in the fire of intense experience to be left purified with greater self awareness

Nigredo, Albedo, then on to Citrinitas and Rubedo...

00:33 / 25.09.06

On the subject of the men in black, I read this interesting bit by Benjamin Rowe.
Link

Gendudehashadenough

02:29 / 01.10.06

Just wanted to come out of hiding and say this thread has many really good ideas/arguements to follow, especially on the sycretic tip. I'll try and add something later, after I read it a few more times. Great read.

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