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'Pikey' 'Council' 'townie' - derogatory class rhetoric

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Quantum of Solace

21:25 / 15.05.06

changes to the UK political and economic landscape

Just to support Illmatic on that, rising poverty and debt and falling political & union involvement are factors IMO. As ever, Britain is doing exactly what America does but ten years later.

13:48 / 16.05.06

Hello, first post

I've been tossing this issue around in my head, and in conversation with friends for ages. I'm 'from' a council estate, but the rural version which is a whole lot nicer than a tower block. I also enjoy some of the trappings of middle-class life, like a reasonably well-paid techy job, shopping at Waitrose, disposable income, dinner parties, aspirations etc. etc. So, I don't really identify with the people I grew up with any more, and certainly not with rough-as-fuck types who are the typical 'chav'. In fact, I despise them, and fantasise about throwing them through the upstairs windows of a bus. Ahem.

But, I also think that they came from somewhere, and I definitely think it's to do with the policies mentioned by Illmatic, along with the wider move to a more commercial society, where advertising, aspirations, lack of education, cheap goods, brutal financial institutions, societal alienation, and God knows what else have combined to create this situation. Common to all people you might call 'chav' (and some mates have really pissed me off, calling Mums or little kids 'chavs', really nasty dehumanisation) is a lack of power, which has to be linked to their financial status. I was going to write social status but that has now been replaced by financial status, how good your credit report is etc. Unless you understand the rules of the game it's easy to get lost in it. So, I probably think that classism is more prevalent now, but then it normally hides behind ideas of fashion, money, odour...

I think you could turn this problem around by giving people a proper education in life. That is, teach them how life really works, how money really works, how health works, empower them to create, basically a dose of reality and a bit of trust. Won't work for everyone but it would be better than the National Curriculum. Sounds a bit blue-sky but I know so many people at home that are really sound and clever, but just don't have the confidence. And that could have been sorted in school.

15:21 / 16.05.06

Just in way of clarification, I'm not sure that when John referred to tribal conflicts he meant, exclusively, gang wars or gang fights, but rather the attendant dangers of being a member of any social group (as a teenager).
Correct me if I'm wrong, John.

Tamara Willett Hurt
(prev. Milton FUCKING Friedman)

15:55 / 16.05.06

Bumbles:

[S]ome mates have really pissed me off, calling Mums or little kids 'chavs', really nasty dehumanisation... I probably think that classism is more prevalent now...

I think this is very true, and your annoyance with your friends is well-founded. But surely this:

I don't really identify with the people I grew up with any more, and certainly not with rough-as-fuck types who are the typical 'chav'. In fact, I despise them, and fantasise about throwing them through the upstairs windows of a bus.

...Could also be interpreted as nasty dehumanisation and classism. Couldn't it?

21:55 / 16.05.06

Yes, I agree - I've tried to both rise above the debate and at the same time tried to make a 'know what i mean?' appeal - a bit loose and not really on.

Being a bit more precise, I simply hate anti-social behaviour, whether it's from City suits or teenagers on the bus. The current vernacular seems to put more venom in comments about the latter.

There's more to say on this, I just need to think a bit more...

All Acting Regiment

04:27 / 17.05.06

Sounds a bit blue-sky but I know so many people at home that are really sound and clever, but just don't have the confidence. And that could have been sorted in school.

Good point here, B. I think a lot of it is about confidence, and confidence is decided by how much help your background gives you in dealing with the national curriculum. I know intelligent, funny lads who at 19/20 are now making a living out of nicking cars, simply because they didn't fit into what the school saw as the model for a good student- this model being essentially childlike and receptive, even at 14/15. They were closed out of the system, while other kids who were just as unpleasant/agressive but crucially knew how to play the system got through to university and good jobs.

This is another problem with a school system based increasingly on tests and exams at the expense of actually learning about the wider world- schools become a hub of the mundane meritocracy: a place where you go and get shit for not knowing enough, instead of a place where you can go to learn new and exciting stuff, and thus an immense turn-off to anyone who doesn't know the rewards.

The middle class kids who got out of my high school and to university didn't enjoy their time there anymore than the kids who didn't- they got through because they saw proof in their family that at the end of all the boring shit there was a good life (of some kind).

Tamara Willett Hurt
(prev. Milton FUCKING Friedman)

12:45 / 17.05.06

Being a bit more precise, I simply hate anti-social behaviour, whether it's from City suits or teenagers on the bus. The current vernacular seems to put more venom in comments about the latter.

But it goes further than that - I think the whole concept of "anti-social behaviour" as recently enshrined in media and political rhetoric and ASBOs etc. is inherently screwed-up and class conscious. (Disclaimer: it could be that you've always used the term and weren't even thinking of the wider context of how it is most often currently used - that's the trouble with language.)

"Anti-social behaviour" is a moveable feast that encompasses everything from actual physical aggression through listening to your music too loud to, at its extreme, wearing the wrong item of clothing. For that reason I don't think it's a very useful term, and it's better to avoid it altogether and deal in specifics.

15:58 / 18.05.06

But it goes further than that - I think the whole concept of "anti-social behaviour" as recently enshrined in media and political rhetoric and ASBOs etc. is inherently screwed-up and class conscious. (Disclaimer: it could be that you've always used the term and weren't even thinking of the wider context of how it is most often currently used - that's the trouble with language.)

Yes, I see what you mean but the behaviour is real, and it does happen, very regularly in my experience. And no, for your information I happen to use that term off my own bat, shock horror! Anti-social kind of meaning 'I don't give a fuck how you feel, I'll act as though you don't matter'.

Fantasising about getting your own back against perceived bullies is probably very natural, and has nowt to do with class. I sincerely empathise with people who are made to feel isolated and threatened by no-good idiots. At the same time, I refuse to accept this situation came out of nowhere, and that locking people up is the solution.

"Anti-social behaviour" is a moveable feast that encompasses everything from actual physical aggression through listening to your music too loud to, at its extreme, wearing the wrong item of clothing. For that reason I don't think it's a very useful term, and it's better to avoid it altogether and deal in specifics.

I've never heard anyone being accused of anti-social behaviour for just wearing hoodies! Perhaps I've been reading the wrong papers.

16:03 / 18.05.06

The middle class kids who got out of my high school and to university didn't enjoy their time there anymore than the kids who didn't- they got through because they saw proof in their family that at the end of all the boring shit there was a good life (of some kind).

Yes, it's telling that most of my friends were middle-class. On top of being a bit different anyway (I liked books

) I was able to see that there was a way of life out there where you could slack about^H^H study and end up with a decent job!

I do think that school has changed in the last 10 years though, and because I'm well out of it I haven't got a clue how. Perhaps this is another factor in the 'chav' phenomenon.

21:17 / 20.05.06

I grew up in England, and I've been living in the States for more than 20 years now. I can definately attest that there is a much more defined class structure in UK society than there is in US society, where how you talk and where you grew up has much less to do than how much money you have. In the US, it appears more economically based. You could have lower-class dress and speech patterns but if you had money you'd get the respect due your monetary prowess. I'm not so sure that's as true in the UK, but I could be wrong, because the UK has changed to become alot more US-like in the years since I left, as I noticed on my visits there.

22:15 / 20.05.06

Yes, I see what you mean but the behaviour is real, and it does happen, very regularly in my experience. And no, for your information I happen to use that term off my own bat, shock horror! Anti-social kind of meaning 'I don't give a fuck how you feel, I'll act as though you don't matter'.

But it was Flyboy's point that, whether or not the behaviour is "real", it's subjectively (and, arguably, very poorly) defined. Could you give concrete examples of what you understand by "anti-social behaviour" in this context?

22:19 / 20.05.06

n the US, it appears more economically based. You could have lower-class dress and speech patterns but if you had money you'd get the respect due your monetary prowess.

I've noticed that American - and, interestingly, Indian - people have, relatively speaking, been quickest to bring conversation around to what one does for a living, sometimes embarrassingly bluntly. I guess that's about trying to place one in a financial hierarchy asap.

14:07 / 22.05.06

I've never heard anyone being accused of anti-social behaviour for just wearing hoodies! Perhaps I've been reading the wrong papers.

Perhaps you have, Bumbles.

11:41 / 10.06.08

Ofcom assessing ITV 'pikey' jibe

Media regulator Ofcom is to consider if broadcasting rules were broken when the word "pikey" - a slang term for gypsy - was used in ITV1's sports coverage

Commentator Martin Brundle was interviewing Formula One chief Bernie Ecclestone before the Canadian Grand Prix, where part of the track crumbled.

"There are some pikeys there at turn 10 putting tarmac down - what do you think of that," he asked Ecclestone.

Ofcom said it had received seven complaints. ITV said sorry to viewers.

I'd be interested to see the final outcome of this.

18:27 / 12.06.08

The BBC website has an article on the same ITV 'pikey' bungle. I mention this not because the article is especially brilliant, but because I wish to quote the 'slang expert' they interview towards the end:

"The language of snobbishness and class distinction has come right back, with words like 'posh' or 'pleb' or 'prol', words I thought had disappeared in the late 60s. This is the language of social discrimination and it's quite shocking that this language is now being bandied about. It started with 'chav' and then the 'posh' stuff about David Cameron and Boris Johnson."

So, what's everyones' take? Are terms like 'posh' or, perhaps more so, 'toff' equally as prevelant and dismissive as terms like 'chav' and 'pikey'? I question this because whilst I do agree with the commentator that they are often used as derogatory class-ist terms I am not certain that they can really be so easily equated to 'chav'/'pikey'.

Aside from the obvious 'it's easier to take class-ism sympathy with those at the bottom of the socio-economic pile' argument, I also feel that the term 'chav' as had a much more profound effect on modern british society than 'toff' or 'posh' ever could. This is primarily because 'chav' is such a dismissive term that those addressed by it are either
1) Forced to distance themselves from it in such a way that stratifies the lowest rungs of society even further.
or, 2) Forced to accept it, a position which puts social mobility even further out of reach, and which can lead to the type of resignation where anti-social behaviour seems reasonable.
Meanwhile, at the other end of the spectrum, 'toff' and 'posh' aren't so clearly dangerous to me.

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