Talk:Donnie Darko
From Barbelith
Slush pile (annotations waiting for a category)
E. Randy Dupre:
There are two points where the camera spins around Donnie: the one that Cherry's mentioned at the party and one before that when he first gets off the school bus. We come back to the school bus later, of course, seeing it as the final image in the reverse film section before the screen whites-out. I can think of a couple of reasons for this, the most obvious being that it forms a couple of bookends to periods of time in the film. The other is that the side view makes Donnie's emergence from the bus door look a little like someone stepping out of a coffin, but that could just be me.
Immediately after that reverse sequence, though, there's something that's out of place. We're presented with a couple of seconds of what looks like a family reunion scene, Elisabeth hugging Samantha and Edward embracing Rose, while Donnie looks on. What is this? What's its position in time or space? It almost looks like the safe return of Rose and Samantha from the talent competition they travelled to, but there are obvious problems with that idea.
Oh yeah, someone said something earlier in the thread about Monnitoff's name being written into the dirt of the school bus window. It's not; it's "Mongrels".
Morlock/1:
Random Bits:
- The car journey at the end is, I *think*, just symbolic for his journey back to the start ofthe tale. I think he stops the car pretty much where we first find him asleep in the road. Or he's just looking for a good seat to watch the show from. Or both.
- Pretty sure the engine was the Artifact. According to the site, the Artifact is always metal, and must be returned to the right place in spacetime by the Living Reciever to collapse the Tangent Universe and save the Primary one. Seems to fit the bill, assuming Grandma Death wasn't too gaga at time of writing. And yes, that does mean that Donnie is ultimately killed by a version of himself that exists only because he didn't get killed when he should have...ouch.
- I think the engine is also the spacecraft he discusses with the physics teacher, what's-his-name. Presumably that's how he gets his (somewhat wiser) soul back to a point early enough to stay in bed and get killed. "Why are you wearing that stupid man-suit?" Lada: Presumably only his spirit rtavels because there's a version of his body already waiting. Solves the problem of leg-room, anyway.
- For me the film is mostly about Love vs Fear. I think I get the Divine Intervention bit(presumably how the Tangent universe came to be in the first place), but it's just a foundation for me. Every significant character in the film is afraid of something.
- Donnie's sleepwalking episodes seem driven more by an urge to get away from his bed than to somewhere in particular, including the episode mentioned on the site. I guess that means that he knew (subconsciously or otherwise) the engine was on it's way years before it hit/missed.
Ugh, there's more but I must do some work.
Mr Tricks:
I think a key factor in this whole movie stems form the Chat Donnie has with the science teacher...
Something to the effect of traveling through time with-in GOD's channel...
Perhaps Donnie Died, crushed under that piece of DC-10... but Devine intervention allowed hime to live on in the tangent unverse not in the way it worked for Jesus in Last Temptation of Christ but opposite. It could be implied that he was a miserable boy "hating life" and potentially "not Saved" thus destined for Hell. Yeah very christian... but wasn't most of the Movie? Thus GOD creates the Tangent Universe specificly to allow Donnie the chance to seek/create his own redemption. Ultimately, It was his choice to either continue down the path of the Tanget Universe where he could have potentially grown up to become an anti-christ equal to the one he "outed" OR choose a path of "love" (something he had next to no knowledge of at the onset of the movie...calling his mom a bitch an all) and save his soul by saving someone he "loved."
In this sence the 2 people who Died in the tangent Universe... Fred and Grechen served as Saviors/Martyrs for Donnie, who in turn played the same roll for everyone else in that TU. Back in the Prime Universe, Donnie reachs Satori is enlightened and goes to sleep/death content in his salvation. That night others awaken from dreams of this selfless act and in the Morning Rose Darko Meets Grechen each playing out the roles of the Virgin Mary and Mary Magdilane. On cosmic terms Grechen and Rose are connected via the Love of Donnie.
Jack Fear:
See, I think I disagree with that assessment. Web marketing is nothing new, true, but the Web-connection with Darko goes beyond marketing.
Given your examples (and they're the same examples I was going to use), Blair Witch was a functional artwork on its own--all the rules for understanding it were given in the film itself (specifically in the opening title card). Same with Memento: it's entirely possible to watch and understand the film using only the clues and signifiers within the context of the film itself. Same with The Matrix.
Which is generally how artworks with supplementary materials work: everything's right there in the art itself, and the artist leaves it to others (i.e., critics) to unpack it. James Joyce, f'rinstance, never provided a "schema" for Ulysses (not for public consumption, anyway); it was the job of literary scholars to construct one from the hints and contextual clues available in the work itself.
But Darko deliberately withholds crucial information. The theoretical framework in which the film's action takes place can only be fully understood by looking at the website, the supplementary material: it's barely alluded to in the film itself.
Which makes me think that maybe Donnie Darko the film and www.donniedarko.com are not two separate things, but two parts of the same thing.
Ugh. More later.
Nanki-poo:
I need some help with donniedarko.com, and I'd be grateful if someone could aid me.
I recently saw the movie, thought it was cool (to be brief) and went to check out the website, thought it was cool, but then was stymied. I finished 'level 1' and got the password (breathe), but then I tried to get to level 2 from the level select menu with the slanty red bars on the right and all that comes up is a button to get back to that menu and the red bars regemerating. Same thing with selecting level 3.
How/where can I access these newspaper articles you've referred to? Is there a way to get to levl 2 that I've missed? Does the webmaster need contacting because this is an error?
Help me, please.
Solitaire Rose:
Finally saw it as well, and my thoughts (without seeing the website) was to take the "Last Temptation Of Christ" reference as my key to understanding the movie. All of the movie took place in his head as the plane accident happened.
It followed the same structure as Last Temptation, except instead of the Devil showing up and showing him what could have been if he would have turned away from dying on the cross, it was a man in a bunny outfit showing him parts of a possible future. However, since he KNEW it wasn't real, his mind rebelled and kept dropping clues to him that everything was not as it seemed.
Wyrd:
Like a lot of you I've been a Donnie Darko evangelist since I saw the flick at Frightfest in London in August. I've since purchased the US version of the DVD, and would recommend anyone who loves the movie to watch it again on DVD, and then with the commentary. It explains a great deal of the intent behind the film. This is the kind of movies that DVDs were made for.
If you're still reading this then you enjoy spoilers...
Basically Kelly states that at the point where the airline jet engine falls into the house at the beginning of the movie a "tangent universe" (as he calls it) comes into existence. Donnie is now hyperaware and the tangent universe keeps sending him messages about how he can fix this parallel universe. Even down to the words "Cellar Door" on the blackboard. In order to fix this universe he has to do things in a certain set order, and finally he has to kill Frank (who ironically is his sister's boyfriend). That's why he keeps telling people "everything is going to be better". Everyone in the tangent universe is vaguely aware that something is amiss, but only Donnie can fix things. He does this by killing someone, and then sacrificing his own life subsequently. The amazing scene is when the jet engine hits and everyone wakes up, with the tangent universe only a lingering dream in their minds.
So, from Kelly's perspective this is not about a mental disorder, though what happens to Donnie does obviously impinge upon his mental wellbeing.
I plan on picking up the soundtrack of the movie eventually, if only for that superb version of Mad World - though the score is very good too.
It certainly is inspiring that a first-time writer/director like Kelly can create such an interesting movie, and that despite itself, Hollywood helps out. Good on Drew Barrymore and her production company I say. He was hawking it around Hollywood for 3 years before anyone agreed to make it - despite everyone agreeing it was great.
Uniformly excellent performances all around. I loved the "realness" of the family, with its love and awkwardness. The deleted scenes on the DVD give the family a lot more dimension too. And Patrick Swayze has to be given credit for playing such a sleezy character to perfection - not something many actors would have the courage to do (especially since it's to do with "kiddy porn").
Let me stop now before I go on, and on, and on...
The Return Of Rothkoid:
Saw it last night. Beautiful. Just beautiful. Something about it that seemed to work; the theory aspects made me think of Being John Malkovich a little.
Will tease it out more when I get home, maybe, but did anyone else watching this get Jacob's Ladder flashbacks while watching? Admittedly, there's a bit more to it than that, but the idea of possible futures and making a choice struck home really strongly to me...
Mystery Gypt:
Is no one here talking about this film? it's totally incredible - one of those "how the fuck did this get made" kind of movies. It's like David Lynch but warm -- yeah it's like david lynch directing pretty in pink with time travel and murder. Totally amazing.
it's about a possibly paranoid-schizophrenic, but totally brilliant teenager in the 80s who sleep walks and communicates across time with a terrifiying giant bunny rabbit. He sees 4th dimensional time trails come out of people and secretly terrorizes the neighborhood under control of the the rabbit. Patrick Swayze comes to town in an amazing performance as a Self-Help guru who donnie accuses of being the antichrist. donnie discovers that someone in the neighborhood may have discovered the secret to time travel. drew barrymore is his english teacher.
i'd say more enticing stuff but i'm worried im getting into spoiler territory.
an 80s soundtrack and the occasional reference to back to the future and the last temptation of christ round out a fucking weird movie, maybe the best i've seen all year.
the website http://www.donniedarko.com/ is cool; and here's an interview with the filmmaker. http://www.laweekly.com/ink/01/49/film-donnelly.shtml
Perfect Tommy:
(For those perusers of the site... have you noticed that the time since the Tangent Universe collapsed is still increasing?)
Okay... here goes: The Philosophy of Time Travel. You probably wish to avoid reading it if you haven't seen the film.
Some chapters are missing; I don't know if they are hidden on the site somewhere and I haven't found them, but they are not presented with the rest of the book.
S
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[The site presents the book as accompanying this letter:]
August 17, 1999
Elizabeth Hartford Library Of Congress Rare Books Division 101 Independence Ave. S.E. Ste. 116 Washington, D.C. 20540
Dear Elizabeth,
Enclosed please find "The Philosophy of Time Travel" by Roberta Sparrow.
This book was retrieved from a safety deposit box held by my husband. In the event of his untimely death, my instructions tell me to forward this book to you.
Ken knew that you would find a safe place for it.
A place where they can never find it.
Sincerely,
[signed] Karen P. Monnitoff
The Philosophy of Time Travel Roberta Sparrow
FOREWORD I would like to thank the sisters of the Sain John Chapter in Alexandria, Virginia for their support in my decision.
By the grace of God, they are:
Sister Eleanor Lewis Sister Francesca Godard Sister Helen Davis Sister Catherine Arnold Sister Mary Lee Pond Sister Virginia Wessex
The intent of this short book is for it to be used as a simple and direct guide in a time of great danger.
I pray that this is merely a work of fiction.
If it is not, then I pray for you, the reader of this book.
If I am still alive when the events foretold in these pages occur, then I hope that you will find me before it is too late.
Roberta Ann Sparrow October, 1944
Chapter One - The Tangent Universe The Primary Universe is fraught with great peril. War, plague, and natural disaster are common. Death comes to us all.
The Fourth Dimension of time is a stable construct, though it is not impenetrable.
Incidents when the fabric of the fourth dimension becomes corrupted are incredibly rare.
If a Tangent Universe occurs, it will be highly unstable, sustaining itself for no longer than several weeks.
Eventually it will collapse upon itself, forming a black hole within the Primary Universe capable of destroying all existence.
Chapter Two - Water And Metal Water and Metal are the key elements of Time Travel.
Water is the barrier element for the construction of Time Portals used as gateways between Universes at the Tangent Vortex.
Metal is the transitional element for the construction of Artifact Vessels.
Chapter Four - The Artifact And The Living When a Tangent Universe occurs, those living nearest to the Vortex will find themselves at the epicenter of a dangerous new world.
Artifacts provide the first sign that a Tangent Universe has occurred.
If an Artifact occurs, the Living will retrieve it with great interest and curiousity. Artifacts are formed from metal, such as an Arrowhead from an ancient Mayan civilization, or a Metal Sword from Medievel Europe.
Artifacts returned to the Primary Universe are often linked to religious iconography, as their appearance on Earth seems to defy logical explanation.
Divine Intervention is deemed the only logical conclusion for the appearance of the Artifact.
Chapter Six - The Living Receiver The Living Receiver is chosen to guide the Artifact into postion [sic] for its journey back to the Primary Universe.
No one knows how or why a Receiver will be chosen.
The Living Receiver is often blessed with a Fourth Dimensional Powers [sic]. These include increased strength, telekenesis [sic], mind control, and the ability to conjure fire and water.
The Living Receiver is often tormented by terrifying dreams, visions and auditory hallucinations during his time within the Tangent Universe.
Those surrounding the Living Receiver, known as the Manipulated, will fear him and try to destroy him.
Chapter Seven - The Manipulated Living The Manipulated Living are often the close friends and neighbors of the Living Receiver.
They are prone to irrational, bizarre, and often violent behavior. This is the unfortunate result of their task, which is to assist the Living Receiver in returning the Artifact to the Primary Universe.
The Manipulated Living will do anything to save themselves from Oblivion.
Chapter [Eight, presumably; page is torn] - The Manipulated Dead The Manipulated Dead are more powerful than the Living Receiver. If a person dies within the Tangent Dimension, they are able to contact the Living Receiver through the Fourth Dimensional Construct.
The Fourth Dimensional Construct is made of Water.
The Manipulated Dead will manipulate the Living Receiver using the Fourth Dimensional Construct (see Appendix A and B).
The Manipulated Dead will often set an Ensurance Trap for the Living Receiver to ensure that the Artifact is returned safely to the Primary Universe.
If the Ensurance Trap is successful, the Living Receiver is left with no choice but to use his Fourth Dimensional Power to send the Artifact back in time into the Primary Universe before the Black Hole collapses upon itself.
Appendix A [Drawing of a human male torso from about mid-thigh to the bridge of the nose; the skin removed to show the musculature. Two concentric circles are over the middle of the chest in a target shape; there are all sorts of notes that I can't read pointing to muscles; I think it might just be a slightly altered picture right out of an anatomy textbook.]
Appendix B [Human skeleton seen from the side, with an arrow from the chest indicating the direction of the pathway/tunnel.]
Chapter Twelve - Dreams When the Manipulated awaken from their Journey into the Tangent Universe, they are often haunted by the experience in their dreams.
Many of them will not remember.
Those who do remember the Journey are often overcome with profound remorse for the regretful actions buried within their Dreams, the only physical evidence buried within the Artifact itself, all that remains from the lost world.
Ancient myth tells us of the Mayan Warrior killed by an Arrowhead that had fallen from a cliff, where there was no Army, no enemy to be found.
We are told of the Medievel Knight mysteriously impaled by the sword he had not yet built.
We are told that these things occur for a reason.
Notes [The word "Notes" is in typeface on a blank page; beneath, in handwritten capitals (I suspect I could guess at the names I couldn't read if I had seen the movie less than a three months ago):]
Living Receiver Donnie Darko
Manipulated Dead Frank Anderson Gretchen Ross (not her real name)
Manipulated Living Edward Darko Rose Darko Elisabeth Darko Samantha Darko Katherine Farmer Elisabeth Farmer Jim Cunningham ([something something], 1988) Kenneth Monnitoff Karen Pomeroy Larry Cole Ch[--?] Chen Seth Devlin Ricky Danforth Joanie James Susan Bates Susan Bailey Sean Smith Leroy[?] Jones Michael Carter Linda Connie[?] Roberta Sparrow
Mystery Gypt:
quote:Originally posted by impulsivelad: Care to post what you've come up with. I'd love to see you lot break this down like you do with New X Men and Buffy.
one thing that i felt was a key were the films playing in the double feature on the donnie's date with the girl.
- SPOILERS*
which were EVIL DEAD and THE LAST TEMPTATION OF CHRIST.
donnie's story is very much like LAST TEMPTATION, in that he gets a chance to live out an entire life as a man, gets to be in love with a girl, etc, but ultimately he has to give up his life to save them all. he even saves the fucking "anti-christ" (swayze) because it is the right thing to do. he accept the existence of *something cosmic* that he names god, and having lived this material existence in order to understand that higher order, he passes out of life and into something new, outside of time.
the bunny-suit creature is a sort of "evil dead" and when it is counting down to the end of the world, it could be interpereted ass counting down to donnie's death or the kid wearing the suits death. both are correct, and a third option is that it is the end of the world for the evil-dead-bunny itself, who's world ends because it ceases to exist when donnie chooses a different timeline.
in addition to the two films mentioned above, the director has sworn the whole thing is a remake of La Jette, chris marker's incredible still-photo experimental film about time travel ("remade" as 12 monkeys). as i recall, in that film the protagonist caused the very tragedy he hoped to avoid via time travel; donnie dark does something much different. he rebels against fate, while simultaneously accepting the inevitability of consequence. he literally meets god and even gives up his own identity as martyr -- ie, the girl will never even meet him -- in order to truly do good.
anyone have a sense of what the film's "position" is on the question of violence against authority? this comes up again and again, in the plotline with barrymore, etc. though donnie chooses a path that ends all the violence, how are we left to think about our relation to authority? that there is someway to transcend it? or its better to die resisting peacefully than succomb to violent impules? i'm not sure myself.
bio K9:
If you're still reading this thread you probably don't need *ANOTHER SPOILER WARNING* but there it is.
The bike ride to Roberta Sparrow's house at the beginning of Chapter 24, Waltz in the Fourth Dimension, had ET written all over it.
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Gypt: Anyone have a sense of what the film's "position" is on the question of violence against authority? This comes up again and again, in the plotline with barrymore, etc. Though Donnie chooses a path that ends all the violence, how are we left to think about our relation to authority? That there is someway to transcend it? Or its better to die resisting peacefully than succomb to violent impules? I'm not sure myself.
I ALREADY GAVE A SPOILER WARNING
None of Donnies violence is directed at people exept when he kills Frank near the end of the movie. Just after he shoots Frank he tells the kid in the clown costume to "Go home and tell your parents everything will be ok." I think he knows it was wrong and he knows hes going to make it right.
May be obvious but I liked that Frank only ran over Gretchen because he was trying to avoid Roberta Sparrow who had just taken a letter from Donnie her mailbox.
deus ex machina
"What did you just say? What the fuck did you just say?"
God from a machine.
An unbelievible character or event thats brought in to resolve the plot.
deus ex machina indeed.
Perfect Tommy:
Here's what I don't get:
The science teacher, Mr. Monnitoff, says cryptic things such as, "Let no one know I gave you this," "I can't continue these conversations," and so forth. The website tells us, in the form of a newspaper article, that in 1999, he was killed in a hit-and-run accident; the article also tells us that before becoming a science teacher, he worked for the CIA. And that letter accompanying the copy of _The Philosophy of Time Travel_ asks the recipient to find a place "they" can never find it.
The best I can come up with is that in our post-Kennedy-assassination world, we have conspiracy theory instead of divine intervention, and so the "religious iconography" surrounding the Artifact (the plane engine) takes the form of weird government operations instead of claims of the divine.
I also think the above is stupid. Anyone got anything better?
Mystery Gypt:
"they" might be the, what are they called in the book, the "manipulated others" or whatever, the people closest to donnie who unwittingly play a part of the tangential universe collapse.
the hit-and-run may be less assassination and more structural repetition vis-a-vis the hit-and-run that causes the tangential universe collapse. perhaps that makes the science teacher something akin to an apostle or a prophet, crucified like jesus but not himself the messiah; or even more directly like john the baptist who came before but had not perfected the teacher. if he was killed in 1999, where does this put him in the movie's timeline? and in WHICH timeline? could it be that he is sacrificed in only one or the other, lost or saved based on donnie's decision?
via "conspiracy-speak," which is uncontestably the mysticism of the last 20thC, we do in fact return to religious iconography -- a faceless, powerful originator, a struggle for good and evil, unexplainable miracles and sacred objects (the engine, or in other myths, the alien artifact, etc.).
Captain Zoom:
I'm sorry to branch the discussion off, but I have a question. There's a point in the film where Donnie appears to see a futuristic city. At least, that's what I thought it was. I don't have the disc, so I can't point out the exact time index, but it was kind of swirly clouds and large looking buildings. Argh. Not expressing properly.
Also, Frank would never have become one of the manipulated dead if he hadn't called Donnie out of the house when the engine came down. And it seems the whole point of Donnie collapsing the tangent universe was to save both Frank's and Gretchen's lives. Well, okay, not the whole point, but a definite outcome of his actions. What caused the creation of the tangent universe? Has this been covered and I've missed it?
Zoom.
Perfect Tommy:
"Frank would never have become one of the manipulated dead if he hadn't called Donnie out of the house when the engine came down. And it seems the whole point of Donnie collapsing the tangent universe was to save both Frank's and Gretchen's lives. Well, okay, not the whole point, but a definite outcome of his actions. What caused the creation of the tangent universe?" --Captain Zoom
I *think* that the tangent universe is something that just *happened*. The continuum gets corrupted for reasons unknown; causality breaks down, delivering such paradoxes as Frank calling Donnie out of the house so that Donnie will save Frank after he kills him because Frank called him out in the first place. *blink*
"if he was killed in 1999, where does this put him in the movie's timeline? and in WHICH timeline?" --Mystery Gypt
I don't think there is more than one timeline. If the Artifact was not returned to the Primary Universe, then according to the book, Bad Things happen. The end of all existence and what-not. But luckily for us and unluckily for Donnie, "the Ensurance Trap is successful [i.e., Gretchen dies, and] the Living Receiver is left with no choice but to use his Fourth Dimensional Power to send the Artifact back in time into the Primary Universe before the Black Hole collapses upon itself."
Gretchen, as a member of the Manipulated Dead, ensuring her own death in the T.U. to ensure she lives in the P.U., is also paradoxical, but I think that cause-and-effect being turned on its ear is a side effect of the breakdown in time.
Mystery Gypt:
more i think about it, the more i think one of the MANY levels of interpretation here revolves around the movie playing with the structure of film itself.
the description of the living receiver fits the concept of what a protagonist is in film -- someone who, because of events, his character (desire), and the people around him, is forced to make critical choice after critical choice until finally he makes an ultimately critical choice and takes an action SO drastic that everything changes permanently, the actions can not be undone, the world becomes a different place... and then the movie is over.
"manipulated dead" makes me think first of ACTORS -- or puppets, or players, or characters. it is certainly the job of characters to force the protagonist into critical decision making.
with this in mind, as well as the comments i made above about the countdown on the website, i would posit that in at least one interpretation, the Tangent Universe is created by the action of the MOVIE STARTING, and when that universe collapses, the film ends.
La Jette was definately about film, storytelling, and structure, and so even when working within the flimsy "authorial intention" mode of interpretation, i imagine a critique of filmic storytelling consciously found it's way in. not to mention it was a first time script from a recent graduate who wanted to make a big mark on film.
2001, in addition to darko, spawned both MEMENTO and MULLHOLAND DRIVE. all three were about memory and its destruction, and all three were most definately about the structure of filmic storytelling, at least in part.
DMC.
spoiler :DD spoiler :Mulholland drive.
While I dont believe it was the authors intention, the philosophy of time travel parrallels MULHOLLAND DRIVE, in that the whole experience is explainable as a 'death trip', Or an experience/journey at the moment of death. This 'trip' seems to have purpose in rectifying oneself with God, or in righting wrongs. In such, it makes the trip, like that in Mulholland Drive a form of purgatory. My next research, and a suggested research topic for those who found these 2 film enthralling, is into the concept of purgatory itself. Could this, once solely religious concept, be explained as the minds 'death trip' (with near death experiences perhaps shedding some light).
The one thing that doesnt hold with this, is the waking sequences of everyone else after donnies death, but then these are somewhat indulgent in that they devalue the leap back in time (Bringing shadow memories back is a flawed, although touching, end note).
-- 'You have failed' the principil to drew barrymore. Failed in manipulating donnies path, hence the obvious "cellar door" message to donnie.
-- Do the manipulated represent messages from the subconcious (or perhaps more appropriatly the unconcious) to the conscious mind, during the death trip.
SUCH a good film. --
Lisa:
I just got something I was thinking about since I'm reading about this movie. Does anyone know Goethe's Faust, one of the figures in there is called Gretchen, might be interesting!
--
has anyone noticed the significance of the numbers? the movie takes place in 1988 frank tells donnie the world will end in 28 days 6 hours 42 minutes and 12 seconds. the summ of these number is 88!
focus on that
1 donnies dog callie died when he was eight
2 the fire was put out some time after eight
3 samantha asks when she can have kids donnie says 'not until 8th grade
4 the film was shot in 28 days
5 rose darko says that her and samantha are taking the 'red eye' flight. the according to the airport annoncement they are flying on flight 2806 bording at gate 42 and departing at 12am
6 chapter eight in 'the phliosopy of time travel' has no record of ever existing it is either refered to as 'ripped' or 'missing'
wots with that?! conincedece i think not!!
tell me wot u think
jen x
